<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 11.00.9600.17842"></HEAD>
<BODY id=role_body style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: #000000"
bottomMargin=7 leftMargin=7 rightMargin=7 topMargin=7><FONT id=role_document
color=#000000 size=2 face=Verdana>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"><FONT
face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 6/17/2015 8:30:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px">
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Arial>Dear Steven and FIS
Colleagues,<BR><BR>Your message has arrived to the list perfectly: fears are
unjustified. <BR>There is no censorship in this list --and never will be any
(well, as <BR>the movie tells "never say never again"!). Anyhow, I would
dis-dramatize <BR>the discussion. The Vienna conference has been very exciting
and full of <BR>oral discussions that somehow continue now. Quite many of
those good <BR>ideas have been rediscussed in the exchanges of these days.
However, for <BR>my taste, the essential connection between information and
life has not <BR>properly surfaced yet.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00" face=Verdana>hb. have you
seen Guenther Witzak's When Competing Viruses Unify or my book The God
Problem: How a Godless Cosmos Creates? both have clues to the
relationship between information and life. mere clues. but a good
start.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Arial> The explosion of
complexity in the living and the <BR>explosion of complexity in modern
societies is clearly depending on <BR>information and communication flows (or
whatever we may denominate). <BR>Comparatively with the complexity of merely
physical systems, there is <BR>no point about that. Apart from following
the physics, most of the <BR>alternative approaches so far discussed go for
the discursive, <BR>conceptual domain as the place where information should be
<BR>ascertained... What if information belongs to action,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00" face=Verdana>hb: good
question. what is the relationship between information and action?
what is the relationship between stimulus and response? another
topic in The God Problem.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Arial> to the adaptive
<BR>changes arranged by the living and socioeconomic agents, to the
<BR>tentative advancement of their life cycles, to the difficult achievement
<BR>of their fitness in an ever changing environment as communicating
<BR>members of bigger entities and societies... then we are leaving that
<BR>action track of life just as a fragmented scenario of multiple
<BR>specialized points of view--or tying it unpropery. As Goethe put in
<BR>Faust "At the beginning was the deed" Helas not the Verb!<BR><BR>In Vienna
I agreed with Marcin's pragmatic approach to the "liquidity" <BR>of
information. Maybe it is too long to argue, and sure he can do better <BR>than
me. But getting to terms with the factic undefinability of the term <BR>may
help quite a bit to the practice of information science research by
<BR>people with empirical and naturalistic orientation. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00" face=Verdana>hb: from The God
Problem: "<SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%'>information
is anything that a receiver can decode.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Information is anything a receiver can translate.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Information is anything that a
reciever can understand.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Information is in the eyes of the beholder.</SPAN>" how do we
know when information has hit home? stimulus and response. action.
the verb.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Arial>One should not feel
<BR>forced to define a fundamental concept (on a pair with "time" and
<BR>"space"--basic forms of information indeed) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00" face=Verdana>hb: this is
intriguing. how do you interpret time and space as
information? they do tell particles where to go. and particles
respond by moving. is that it?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Arial>plus a cohort of other
<BR>"impossible" related terms (meaning, knowledge, intelligence)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2 face=Verdana><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">hb: from the god problem re the meaning of
meaning: "<SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA'>If
meaning is anything that a receiver can understand, if meaning is anything
that an entity can interpret, if meaning is in the eye of the beholder, then
how do you know when a thing or a person “understands” something? Follow the
B.F. Skinner rule.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Watch his or
her behavior.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Watch for the signs
of stimulus and response.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Watch
to<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>see if the receiver does
something in response to the stimulus.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Watch to see if the receiver moves.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Quarks exchange meaning with stimulus
and response.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So do gas whisps
competing to swallow each other.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>And so do would-be planets using their gravity to snag and cannibalize
comets and space debris.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>How do we know the receivers get the meaning?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>All of them respond to the signals
they receive.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>They move.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>They move toward each
other."</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2 face=Verdana><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00"><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA'></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2 face=Verdana><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00"><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA'>one
more word. from the work of Valerius Geist, author of Life
Strategies. all communication comes down to two elements: attraction
cues and repulsion cues.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA'></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Arial> in order <BR>to
practice good info science research. Acknowledging that, could be a <BR>first
step to achieve a consensus on some basic principles of <BR>information
science that would allow the disciplinary construction and <BR>all the
multiple diversity within. It will take time and patience. So, <BR>our "market
of conceptual exchange" should continue unabated. <BR>Particularly, continuing
the debate on the 4 th Great Domain of Science <BR>can help us to have a big
picture where our more immediate, particular <BR>goals might one day
dovetail.</FONT></DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2
face=Arial></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px">
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00" face=Verdana>hb: i'm a newcomer to these
discussions. what is the fourth great domain of
science?</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Arial><FONT
face=Verdana></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Arial><FONT face=Verdana>with
warmth and oomph--howard</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>Best --Pedro<BR><BR>PS. The servers of University of Zaragoza are
terribly sensitive to spam <BR>suspiciousness, even my own messages have been
rejected occasionally. I <BR>can do little about that.<BR><BR>Steven
Ericsson-Zenith wrote:<BR>> Dear Pedro,<BR>><BR>> My fears appear
justified, the FIS server has begun bouncing my posts.<BR>><BR>> I wish
to say the following:<BR>><BR>><BR>> I fear that I may risk the life
of a child, in addition to encouraging <BR>> additional irrational calls
for banishment, by adding simple <BR>> encouragement to this point of
view. I essentially agree with the <BR>> points that Marcus makes.
The essence of which, I believe, is that <BR>> many endow the notion
“information” with an existential status beyond <BR>> its due. A role that
it is patently ill equipped for.<BR>><BR>> He is right to highlight how
the notion of information is being <BR>> shoe-horned into the gap caused by
the epistemic crisis that now <BR>> appears across science. Serious
consideration of the context, why this <BR>> crisis exists in the first
place, is required. In large part it is, in <BR>> my view, because of the
neglect of natural epistemology and <BR>> existentialism in
science.<BR>><BR>> I would also point out that this crisis is apparent
in the words of <BR>> many modern physicists. Who have argued things like
“falsification is <BR>> unnecessary” and “falsified theories are not
fundamentally wrong” - in <BR>> addition to pursuing nonsensical physics in
which they make egregious <BR>> mistakes. <BR>><BR>> The simplest
examples of these mistakes being 1. the idea of “multiple <BR>> universes”
(that appears to simply be a misuse of English) and even <BR>> “The Big
Bang” as a creation theory (leaving room for all kinds of <BR>> nonsense,
including naive conceptions of “God”).<BR>><BR>> The problem in general
is, I fear, the “shut up and calculate” <BR>> generation - who have focused
upon complex purely mathematical forms <BR>> and forgotten the necessity to
include humanity and all life in its <BR>> considerations, and - as a
consequence - they have sacrificed the <BR>> simplicity and pragmatism of
science.<BR>><BR>> The fault lies in part, I know, with the Logicists,
distracting us <BR>> from the bridge building required between pure
mathematics and the <BR>> physical sciences, advocated first by Benjamin
Peirce (1809-1880). The <BR>> focus upon binary valued systems, entirely
discredited by Godel (to <BR>> whom we listened poorly), has not served us
well.<BR>><BR>> Regards,<BR>> Steven<BR>><BR>><BR>>
--<BR>> Dr. Steven Ericsson-Zenith, Los Gatos,
California. +1-650-308-8611<BR>> http://iase.info
<http://iase.info/><BR>><BR>--
<BR>-------------------------------------------------<BR>Pedro C.
Marijuán<BR>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<BR>Instituto
Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud<BR>Centro de Investigación Biomédica de
Aragón (CIBA)<BR>Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X<BR>50009 Zaragoza,
Spain<BR>Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (&
6818)<BR>pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es<BR>http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/<BR>-------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Fis
mailing list<BR>Fis@listas.unizar.es<BR><A
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="COLOR: #000000" size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10">----------------------<BR>Howard
Bloom<BR>Howardbloom.net<BR>Author of: The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific
Expedition Into the Forces of History ("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post),
<BR>Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From The Big Bang to the 21st
Century ("reassuring and sobering"-The New Yorker), <BR>The Genius of the
Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism ("A tremendously enjoyable book."
James Fallows, National Correspondent, The Atlantic), <BR>The God Problem: How
A Godless Cosmos Creates("Bloom's argument will rock your world." Barbara
Ehrenreich), <BR>How I Accidentally Started the Sixties (“Wow! Whew! Wild!
Wonderful!” Timothy Leary), and <BR>The Mohammed Code (“A terrifying book…the
best book I’ve read on Islam.” David Swindle, PJ Media).<BR>Former Core
Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute; Former Visiting Scholar-Graduate
Psychology Department, New York University<BR>Founder: International
Paleopsychology Project. Founder: The Group Selection Squad; Founder, Space
Development Steering Committee. Board Member and Member Of Board Of Governors,
National Space Society. Founding Board Member: Epic of Evolution Society.
Founding Board Member, The Darwin Project. Founder: The Big Bang Tango Media
Lab. Member: New York Academy of Sciences, American Association for the
Advancement of Science, American Psychological Society, Academy of Political
Science, Human Behavior and Evolution Society, International Society for Human
Ethology. Scientific Advisory Board Member, Lifeboat Foundation. Advisory
Board Member, The Buffalo Film Festival. Editorial board member, The Journal
of Space Philosophy.
<BR></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></FONT></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>