<div dir="ltr">Deacon addressed this all very clearly in his January paper. I'm guessing for most FIS members his argument changed little or nothing. </div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 12:59 PM, Stanley N Salthe <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu" target="_blank">ssalthe@binghamton.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Loet -- Well, so you favor the definition of information as an invention of Western technology related to communication.  Others prefer to define information in such a way that it emerges into the world with biology -- in the genetic system.  Still others define information in such a way that it can be viewed as a physical quantity, perhaps a measure of the importance of context in any physical interaction.  As a generalizer, I prefer the latter, giving us the subsumptive hierarchy:<div><br></div><div>     Information ~ {context {material code {uncertainty}}}</div><div><br></div><div>STAN</div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Loet Leydesdorff <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><span><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">I would add another possibility -- information does not appear in the universe until it is manipulated by modern human society as a commodity.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></span><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">Yes, Stan, this makes sense to me: information (in bits) can be considered as a measurement of the expected uncertainty. It is <i>yet</i> meaning-free, but it can be provided with meaning in a system of reference – such as a discourse.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">For example, {50%,50%} contains 1 bit of information. Thus, if we mix 50 euro coins with 50 coins of a dollar or we group 50 black cats with 50 white ones, the uncertainty is one bit of information. This does not tell us anything about the cats themselves as in a biology.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">During the recent conference in Vienna, I was amazed how many of our colleagues wish to ground information in physics. However, the information-theoretical evaluation seems mathematical to me. The mathematical notion of entropy is different from the physical one. The physical one is only valid for the physico-chemical system of momenta and energy. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">When I exchange the 50 dollars into 50 euros, the expected information content of the distribution of coins goes from one to zero bits, but this is not thermodynamic entropy. The physics of the exchange process are external to the informational-theoretical evaluation.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">I know that you wish to express this with hierarchies. Information can be measured at each level or as mutual information between them. But what the information means, depends on the specific systems of reference.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">Loet<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><hr size="3" width="100%" align="center"></span></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Loet Leydesdorff </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Emeritus</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> University of Amsterdam<br>Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">loet@leydesdorff.net </span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">; </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> <br></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Honorary Professor, </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">SPRU, </span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">University of Sussex; <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Guest Professor </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Zhejiang Univ.</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">, Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">ISTIC, </span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Beijing;<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Visiting Professor, </span><a name="14df8cfe1974d6f3_14df32dce92a94e9__GoBack"></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Birkbeck</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">, University of London; <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Fis [mailto:<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stanley N Salthe<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 14, 2015 3:14 PM</span></p><div><div><br><b>To:</b> fis<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Krassimir -- Thanks. Now I see what your objection is.  You do not agree with the Wheeler concept that information was he basis upon which everything else was founded. Rather, you see it as appearing along with matter. Or you might consider that it appeared 'along with form', in which case information doesn't appear in the universe until life makes it appearance.  I would add another possibility -- information does not appear in the universe until it is manipulated by modern human society as a commodity.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">STAN<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">markov@foibg.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Dear John and Stan,</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">What is </span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">cause, and what is result? This is the question.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">If we not assume information and informational processes as secondary effect from activity of living mater,  it is not possible to proof anything and we have to believe that proposed models maybe are truth. We have to trust to Author but not to experiments. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Information has to be included not in the beginning of the hierarchy – at least in the middle where living mater appear.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Sorry that my post was apprehended as careless!</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Friendly regards</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Krassimir</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu" title="ssalthe@binghamton.edu" target="_blank">Stanley N Salthe</a> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> Saturday, June 13, 2015 3:30 PM<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" title="markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">Krassimir Markov</a> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Krassimir -- ???  I fail to understand your assertion.  This (and any hierarchy) is a logical formulation, allowing us to allocate influences from various aspects of nature in an orderly manner. <u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">So, please explain further your careless assertion!<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">STAN <u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">markov@foibg.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Dear John and Stan,</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Your both hierarchies are good only if you believe in God.</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">But this is believe, not science.</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Sorry, nothing personal!</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Friendly regards</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Krassimir</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <a href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" title="Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" target="_blank">John Collier</a> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Sent:</span></b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">To:</span></b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu" title="ssalthe@binghamton.edu" target="_blank">Stanley N Salthe</a> ; <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" title="fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis</a> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Subject:</span></b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Not quite the same hierarchy, but similar:</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><img border="0" width="477" height="461" src="cid:image001.png@01D0A6D7.7F626A40"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree with this.</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Chemical information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most physiological systems.</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">John</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> Fis [mailto:<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stanley N Salthe<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 12, 2015 3:40 PM<br><b>To:</b> fis<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black">Pedro -- Your list:<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">physical, biological, social, and Informational</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">is implicitly a hierarchy -- in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the physical subsuming the biological and the biological subsuming the social.  But where should information appear?  Following Wheeler, we should have:</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">{informational {physicochemical {biological {social}}}}</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">STAN</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black">On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black">Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are drawing sort of the border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on the interrelationship between computation and information is an essential matter. In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, whenever life cycles are involved and meaningfully "touched", there is info; while the mere info circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on any life-cycle relevant aspect, may be taken as computation. The distinction between both may help to consider more clearly the relationship between the four great domains of sceince: physical, biological, social, and Informational. If we adopt a pan-computationalist stance, the information turn of societies, of bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces to applying computer technologies. I think this would be a painful error, repeating the big mistake of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed the sciences of the artificial and reduced the nascent info science to library science. People like Alex Pentland (his "social physics" 2014) are again taking the wrong way... Anyhow, it was nicer talking face to face as we did in the past conference!<br><br>best ---Pedro<br><br>Ken Herold wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black">FIS:<br><br>Sorry to have been too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I did not intend to substitute for the Information Science thread an alternative way of philosophy or computing.  The references I listed are indicative of some bad thinking as well as good ideas to reflect upon.  Our focus is information and I would like to hear how you might believe the formal relational scheme of Rosenbloom could be helpful?<br><br>Ken<br><br>-- <br>Ken Herold<br>Director, Library Information Systems<br>Hamilton College<br>198 College Hill Road<br>Clinton, NY 13323<br><a href="tel:315-859-4487" target="_blank">315-859-4487</a><br><a href="mailto:kherold@hamilton.edu" target="_blank">kherold@hamilton.edu</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:kherold@hamilton.edu" target="_blank">kherold@hamilton.edu</a>><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><br><br>-- <br>-------------------------------------------------<br>Pedro C. Marijuán<br>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<br>Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud<br>Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)<br>Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X<br>50009 Zaragoza, Spain<br>Tfno. <a href="tel:%2B34%20976%2071%203526" target="_blank">+34 976 71 3526</a> (& 6818)<br><a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><br><a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><br>-------------------------------------------------<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin-left:.5in;text-align:center"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><hr size="3" width="100%" align="center"></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>