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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Dear Joe and colleagues, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>It “flamed” a bit. Thank you for the intervention. The confusion is not only ours, but also in the literature. Indeed, we should not blame each other for it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>I know that you wish to ground information in “reality”: “logic in reality” or LIR. But I understood during the conference for the first time, that “reality” then includes res cogitans. For example, “uncertainty” would be “in reality” if I correctly understand you.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Would this imply that physics as a science would be part of the reality as would its object (“nature”)? I would classify the first as res cogitans (in this case, cogitatum) and the second as res extensa. But we have no access to the latter (“nature”) but as a referent to the former (discourse). Is this part of the logic in reality? Is that in the neighbourhood of what you mean with LIR?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Loet<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Loet Leydesdorff </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Emeritus</span></i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> University of Amsterdam<br>Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>loet@leydesdorff.net </span></a></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>; </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <br></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Honorary Professor, </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>SPRU, </span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>University of Sussex; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Guest Professor </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Zhejiang Univ.</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>, Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>ISTIC, </span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Beijing;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Visiting Professor, </span><a name="_GoBack"></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Birkbeck</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>, University of London; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Fis [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Joseph Brenner<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 15, 2015 12:11 PM<br><b>To:</b> fis<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] It from Bit redux . . . Loss of Information<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Dear Colleagues and Reasoned Opponents,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>A scientific position may be the object of rational disagreement and discussion, but the 'ganging up' of some individuals on a highly respected colleague is disgraceful and unacceptable. By this note I am suggesting to Pedro that Ericsson-Zenith, Sherman and Abundis be removed from the group.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The formulation of Loet's comment was somewhat rapid, since the key questions are 'what physics, what mathematics (and what logic)". As Loet knows well, he and I do not agree on all issues surrounding information. Here I believe he might have been over-reacting to speakers at the conference who took superannuated postions on the physical grounding of information.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Among these positions is the idea that there must be exact, immutable defintions and terminology, as if we were not all involved in a complex learning process. Who is doing the alleged 'needless blurring of terms'? If after all this Abundis is still wondering how he can contribute, as he has already said, perhaps he should draw the obvious conclusion.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The inability to engage in civilized debate corresponds to an enormous LOSS of information in our Information Society. I would not blame the new media, since they are only tools, but they enable the very facile expression of some ideas better left for other venues.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sadly,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Joseph</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:steven@iase.us" title="steven@iase.us">Steven Ericsson-Zenith</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com" title="55mrcs@gmail.com">Marcus Abundis</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Cc:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" title="fis@listas.unizar.es">Foundations of Information Science Information Science</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Monday, June 15, 2015 8:28 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re: [Fis] It from Bit redux . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Trust me. You are in good company.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Steven<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On Jun 14, 2015, at 5:22 PM, Marcus Abundis <<a href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com">55mrcs@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>From Loet's post: <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>>During the recent conference in Vienna, I was amazed how many of our colleagues wish to ground information in physics.<<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>I would say that I was disappointed . . . <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>For me this exchange on It from Bit is problematic as its seems to simply revisit the same problem introduced with Shannon's use of the term “information“ in his Mathematical Theory of Communication – but dressed with a slightly different face. I had this same problem with “lack of precise thinking“ (or terminology?) in the It from Bit video from last month. This endless(?) debate around an old issue of “meaningful information“ versus “meaningless information“ (aka DATA awaiting MEANINGFUL interpretation) I find unhelpful in addressing FOUNDATIONAL issues. If we cannot keep our terms straight I am not sure how progress is made.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Yes, of course physics has a place in the conversation, but the needless blurring of basic terms does not, I think, advance the project. If a basic nomenclature and/or taxonomy cannot be agreed and then abided in these conversations, it leaves me wondering how I might contribute. I am new to this group, but this seems like it should have been dealt with from the start in agreeing the FIS group goals.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 style='margin-left:.5in;outline: 0px;border-spacing: 0px'><tr style='height:22.5pt;outline: 0px'><td width=187 valign=bottom style='width:103.55pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;height:22.5pt;outline: 0px'><p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:13.5pt'><span style='font-size:1.0pt;font-family:"inherit","serif";color:#333333'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr style='outline: 0px'><td width=187 valign=bottom style='width:103.55pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;outline: 0px'><div><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0><tr><td width=1 valign=top style='width:.3pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"inherit","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='vertical-align:baseline'><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Marcus Abundis<o:p></o:p></span></b></p></div><div style='margin-top:2.25pt;outline: 0px'><p class=MsoNormal style='vertical-align:baseline'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>about.me/marcus.abundis<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></td></tr><tr style='outline: 0px'><td width=1 valign=top style='width:.3pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in;outline: 0px'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right;background:#C5D0E0;vertical-align:baseline'><span style='font-family:"inherit","serif"'><img border=0 width=88 height=4 id="_x0000_i1025" src="http://d13pix9kaak6wt.cloudfront.net/signature/colorbar.png"><o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table><p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:0%;vertical-align:baseline'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"inherit","serif";color:#333333'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></td></tr><tr style='height:15.0pt;outline: 0px'><td width=187 valign=bottom style='width:103.55pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;height:15.0pt;outline: 0px'></td></tr></table></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></body></html>