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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear Pedro, Dear Loet and All,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My thanks first to Pedro for his note, especially
for its emphasis on the necessity of scholarly style. I thank Loet also for what
may be a quite unexpected result of my partial defense of his approach, his
restatement of the Cartesian dualistic position. This brings out some
differences, whose value may now be discussed, with the non-Cartesian dualisms
of LIR.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thus I agree that reality includes the
res cogitans, and also physics as a science as much as the object of
physics, the res extensa. Uncertainty is, I think, in reality, and not in
our inability to define position and momentum at the same time, <EM>vs. </EM>a
unitary reality. It is perhaps easier to see in complex emerging situations: the
outcome of this discussion is uncertain, as we move between something like
knowledge and something like ignorance. I assume (Loet
please correct me) that the concept of the res cogitatum, the thing
thought, applied to the res cogitans, allows for self-reference.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The discussion now turns on the question of access.
In contrast to Loet's reading, Logic in Reality says that we have access to
nature, the res extensa, but not only as a referent to the former <EM>via
</EM>discourse, epistemologically. In addition, despite our incapacity of
interacting directly with nature at microphysical levels of reality, the
laws which govern change at our level are isomorphous with those at ours,
making possible some cognition of nature, ontologically, due to our
inseparability from it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Information, in this view, refers to the various
processes that constitute both 'the act and the fact' of this access, and
its subsequent processing at higher levels of complexity (not abstraction). I
see some of the difficulties in semiotic approaches as coming from assuming that
the necessary stage of interpretation of information is not also a natural
cognitive process following the same rules as those at lower
levels.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As I have tried to argue previously but look
forward to doing again ;-), such a view is relevant to Terry Deacon's approach
to the dynamics of information, adding something to the 'how' side, but there is
a lot more to be done here.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joseph</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=loet@leydesdorff.net href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">Loet
Leydesdorff</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=joe.brenner@bluewin.ch
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">'Joseph Brenner'</A> ; <A
title=fis@listas.unizar.es href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">'fis'</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 15, 2015 12:42 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Fis] It from Bit redux . . . Loss of
Information</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dear
Joe and colleagues, <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">It
“flamed” a bit. Thank you for the intervention. The confusion is not only ours,
but also in the literature. Indeed, we should not blame each other for
it.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
know that you wish to ground information in “reality”: “logic in reality” or
LIR. But I understood during the conference for the first time, that “reality”
then includes res cogitans. For example, “uncertainty” would be “in reality” if
I correctly understand you.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Would
this imply that physics as a science would be part of the reality as would its
object (“nature”)? I would classify the first as res cogitans (in this case,
cogitatum) and the second as res extensa. But we have no access to the latter
(“nature”) but as a referent to the former (discourse). Is this part of the
logic in reality? Is that in the neighbourhood of what you mean with
LIR?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Best,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Loet<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Loet
Leydesdorff </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Emeritus</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
University of Amsterdam<BR>Amsterdam School of Communication Research
(ASCoR)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
title=mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">loet@leydesdorff.net </SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">;
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
title=http://www.leydesdorff.net/ href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Honorary
Professor, </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SPRU,
</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">University
of Sussex; <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Guest
Professor </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Zhejiang
Univ.</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">,
Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">ISTIC, </SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Beijing;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Visiting
Professor, </SPAN><A name=_GoBack></A><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Birkbeck</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">,
University of London; <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</SPAN></A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Fis
[mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Joseph
Brenner<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 15, 2015 12:11 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
fis<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] It from Bit redux . . . Loss of
Information<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dear Colleagues and
Reasoned Opponents,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">A scientific position
may be the object of rational disagreement and discussion, but the 'ganging up'
of some individuals on a highly respected colleague is disgraceful and
unacceptable. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The formulation of
Loet's comment was somewhat rapid, since the key questions are 'what
physics, what mathematics (and what logic)". As Loet knows well, he and I
do not agree on all issues surrounding information. Here I believe he might have
been over-reacting to speakers at the conference who took superannuated
postions on the physical grounding of information.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Among these positions
is the idea that there must be exact, immutable defintions and terminology,
as if we were not all involved in a complex learning process. Who
is doing the alleged 'needless blurring of terms'? If after all this Abundis
is still wondering how he can contribute, as he has already said,
perhaps he should draw the obvious conclusion.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The inability to
engage in civilized debate corresponds to an enormous LOSS of information in our
Information Society. I would not blame the new media, since they are only tools,
but they enable the very facile expression of some ideas better left for other
venues.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sadly,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Joseph</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=steven@iase.us href="mailto:steven@iase.us">Steven Ericsson-Zenith</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=55mrcs@gmail.com href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com">Marcus Abundis</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Cc:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=fis@listas.unizar.es href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">Foundations of
Information Science Information Science</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Monday, June 15,
2015 8:28 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re: [Fis] It from
Bit redux . . .<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">Trust me. You are in good
company.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">Steven<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">On Jun 14, 2015, at 5:22 PM,
Marcus Abundis <<A
href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com">55mrcs@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">From Loet's post:
<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">>During the recent
conference in Vienna, I was amazed how many of our colleagues wish to ground
information in physics.<<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">I would say that I was
disappointed . . . <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">For me this exchange on It
from Bit is problematic as its seems to simply revisit the same problem
introduced with Shannon's use of the term “information“ in his Mathematical
Theory of Communication – but dressed with a slightly different face. I had
this same problem with “lack of precise thinking“ (or terminology?) in the
It from Bit video from last month. This endless(?) debate around an old
issue of “meaningful information“ versus “meaningless information“ (aka DATA
awaiting MEANINGFUL interpretation) I find unhelpful in addressing
FOUNDATIONAL issues. If we cannot keep our terms straight I am not sure
how progress is made.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">Yes, of course physics has a
place in the conversation, but the needless blurring of basic terms does
not, I think, advance the project. If a basic nomenclature and/or taxonomy
cannot be agreed and then abided in these conversations, it leaves me
wondering how I might contribute. I am new to this group, but this seems
like it should have been dealt with from the start in agreeing the FIS group
goals.<o:p></o:p></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: baseline"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">Marcus
Abundis<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: baseline"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">about.me/marcus.abundis<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></TD></TR>
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