<div dir="ltr">Krassimir -- Thanks. Now I see what your objection is. You do not agree with the Wheeler concept that information was he basis upon which everything else was founded. Rather, you see it as appearing along with matter. Or you might consider that it appeared 'along with form', in which case information doesn't appear in the universe until life makes it appearance. I would add another possibility -- information does not appear in the universe until it is manipulated by modern human society as a commodity.<div><br></div><div>STAN</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Krassimir Markov <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">markov@foibg.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:14pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000">
<div><font size="4">Dear John and Stan,</font></div>
<div><font size="4">What is </font>cause, and what is result? This is the
question.</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">If we not assume information and informational
processes as secondary effect from activity of living mater, it is not
possible to proof anything and we have to believe that proposed models maybe are
truth. </font><font size="4" face="Calibri">We have to trust to Author but not to
experiments. </font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">Information has to be included not in the
beginning of the hierarchy – at least in the middle where living mater
appear.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">Sorry that my post was apprehended as
careless!</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">Friendly regards</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">Krassimir</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="ssalthe@binghamton.edu" href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu" target="_blank">Stanley N Salthe</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 13, 2015 3:30 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="markov@foibg.com" href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">Krassimir Markov</a> </div><div><div class="h5">
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information -
apologies!</div></div></div></div></div>
<div> </div></div><div><div class="h5">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div dir="ltr">Krassimir -- ??? I fail to understand your assertion.
This (and any hierarchy) is a logical formulation, allowing us to allocate
influences from various aspects of nature in an orderly manner.
<div> </div>
<div>So, please explain further your careless assertion!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>STAN </div></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Krassimir Markov <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">markov@foibg.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid">
<div lang="EN-CA" dir="ltr" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:14pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000">
<div><font size="4">Dear John and Stan,</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Your both hierarchies are good only if you believe in
God.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">But this is believe, not science.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Sorry, nothing personal!</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Friendly regards</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Krassimir</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" target="_blank">John Collier</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="ssalthe@binghamton.edu" href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu" target="_blank">Stanley N Salthe</a> ; <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information -
apologies!</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Not
quite the same hierarchy, but similar:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img src="cid:5FA1BDFB17DB4953BDB8E8619491EC38@VaioMarkov" width="477" height="461"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">It
from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s
computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree with
this.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Chemical
information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most physiological
systems.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Fis
[mailto:<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stanley N
Salthe<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 12, 2015 3:40 PM<br><b>To:</b>
fis<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information -
apologies!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Pedro -- Your list:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9.5pt">physical, biological,
social, and Informational</span><u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9.5pt">is implicitly a hierarchy --
in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the physical subsuming the biological
and the biological subsuming the social. But where should information
appear? Following Wheeler, we should
have:</span><u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9.5pt">{informational
{physicochemical {biological {social}}}}</span><u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9.5pt">STAN</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are
drawing sort of the border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive
view on the interrelationship between computation and information is an
essential matter. In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions,
whenever life cycles are involved and meaningfully "touched", there is info;
while the mere info circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on
any life-cycle relevant aspect, may be taken as computation. The distinction
between both may help to consider more clearly the relationship between the
four great domains of sceince: physical, biological, social, and
Informational. If we adopt a pan-computationalist stance, the information turn
of societies, of bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces to
applying computer technologies. I think this would be a painful error,
repeating the big mistake of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed the
sciences of the artificial and reduced the nascent info science to library
science. People like Alex Pentland (his "social physics" 2014) are again
taking the wrong way... Anyhow, it was nicer talking face to face as we did in
the past conference!<br><br>best ---Pedro<br><br>Ken Herold
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">FIS:<br><br>Sorry to have been too disruptive in my
restarting discussion post--I did not intend to substitute for the Information
Science thread an alternative way of philosophy or computing. The
references I listed are indicative of some bad thinking as well as good ideas
to reflect upon. Our focus is information and I would like to hear how
you might believe the formal relational scheme of Rosenbloom could be
helpful?<br><br>Ken<br><br>-- <br>Ken Herold<br>Director, Library Information
Systems<br>Hamilton College<br>198 College Hill Road<br>Clinton, NY
13323<br><a href="tel:315-859-4487" target="_blank">315-859-4487</a><br><a href="mailto:kherold@hamilton.edu" target="_blank">kherold@hamilton.edu</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:kherold@hamilton.edu" target="_blank">kherold@hamilton.edu</a>><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br><br>--
<br>-------------------------------------------------<br>Pedro C.
Marijuán<br>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<br>Instituto
Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud<br>Centro de Investigación Biomédica de
Aragón (CIBA)<br>Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X<br>50009 Zaragoza,
Spain<br>Tfno. <a href="tel:%2B34%20976%2071%203526" target="_blank">+34 976 71
3526</a> (& 6818)<br><a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><br><a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><br>-------------------------------------------------<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Fis
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><u></u><u></u></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p></div></div>
<hr>
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<div> </div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>