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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear Colleagues,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I completely agree with Krassimir's position and on
the importance of the issue on which it taken. Neither he nor I wish to say that
there cannot be models and insights for science in religious beliefs,
such as the Kabbala, but then John's diagram would be more appropriate if it had
<EM>En Sof</EM> at the center rather than It-from-Bit.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The statement "It-from-Bit is just information",
further, requires analysis: do we 1) accept this as dogma, including the
implied limitation of information to separable binary entities? or 2)
assume that the universe is constituted by complex informational processes, in
which the term 'It-from-Bit' is misleading at best, and should be
avoided?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I feel particularly uncomfortable when dogmatic
computational views such as those of Lloyd and Davies are presented as
authoritative without comment, except by appeal to the authority of 'some
physicists'. Those FISers who would like to see a reasonably considered
rebuttal might look at my article in <EM>Information</EM>: "The Logic of the
Physics of Information".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joseph</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=markov@foibg.com href="mailto:markov@foibg.com">Krassimir Markov</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=Collierj@ukzn.ac.za
href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za">John Collier</A> ; <A
title=ssalthe@binghamton.edu href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu">Stanley N
Salthe</A> ; <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 12, 2015 11:18 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information -
apologies!</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'">
<DIV><FONT size=4>Dear John and Stan,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Your two hierarchies are good only if you believe in
God.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>But this is belief, not science.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Sorry, nothing personal!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Friendly regards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Krassimir</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: small; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=Collierj@ukzn.ac.za
href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za">John Collier</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=ssalthe@binghamton.edu
href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu">Stanley N Salthe</A> ; <A
title=fis@listas.unizar.es href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information -
apologies!</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: small; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Not
quite the same hierarchy, but similar:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><IMG id=Picture_x0020_1 height=461
src="cid:3A74A8256BE94FA98534550CAFE4D4AC@PCdeJoseph" width=477><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">It
from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s
computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree with
this.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Chemical
information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most physiological
systems.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">John<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Fis
[mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Stanley N
Salthe<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 12, 2015 3:40 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
fis<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information -
apologies!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Pedro -- Your list:<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt">physical, biological, social,
and Informational</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt">is implicitly a hierarchy --
in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the physical subsuming the biological and
the biological subsuming the social. But where should information
appear? Following Wheeler, we should have:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt">{informational
{physicochemical {biological {social}}}}</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt">STAN</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan <<A
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"
target=_blank>pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are
drawing sort of the border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive
view on the interrelationship between computation and information is an
essential matter. In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, whenever
life cycles are involved and meaningfully "touched", there is info; while the
mere info circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on any
life-cycle relevant aspect, may be taken as computation. The distinction between
both may help to consider more clearly the relationship between the four great
domains of sceince: physical, biological, social, and Informational. If we adopt
a pan-computationalist stance, the information turn of societies, of
bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces to applying computer
technologies. I think this would be a painful error, repeating the big mistake
of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed the sciences of the artificial
and reduced the nascent info science to library science. People like Alex
Pentland (his "social physics" 2014) are again taking the wrong way... Anyhow,
it was nicer talking face to face as we did in the past conference!<BR><BR>best
---Pedro<BR><BR>Ken Herold wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>FIS:<BR><BR>Sorry to have been too disruptive in my
restarting discussion post--I did not intend to substitute for the Information
Science thread an alternative way of philosophy or computing. The
references I listed are indicative of some bad thinking as well as good ideas to
reflect upon. Our focus is information and I would like to hear how you
might believe the formal relational scheme of Rosenbloom could be
helpful?<BR><BR>Ken<BR><BR>-- <BR>Ken Herold<BR>Director, Library Information
Systems<BR>Hamilton College<BR>198 College Hill Road<BR>Clinton, NY 13323<BR><A
href="tel:315-859-4487" target=_blank>315-859-4487</A><BR><A
href="mailto:kherold@hamilton.edu" target=_blank>kherold@hamilton.edu</A>
<mailto:<A href="mailto:kherold@hamilton.edu"
target=_blank>kherold@hamilton.edu</A>><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><BR>--
<BR>-------------------------------------------------<BR>Pedro C.
Marijuán<BR>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<BR>Instituto Aragonés
de Ciencias de la Salud<BR>Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón
(CIBA)<BR>Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X<BR>50009 Zaragoza, Spain<BR>Tfno.
<A href="tel:%2B34%20976%2071%203526" target=_blank>+34 976 71 3526</A> (&
6818)<BR><A href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"
target=_blank>pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</A><BR><A
href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/"
target=_blank>http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</A><BR>-------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Fis
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
target=_blank>Fis@listas.unizar.es</A><BR><A
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
target=_blank>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</A><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
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