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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear Joseph, List,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I am running past my allotment, so I will shut up after this for a while. (I have to go to California for a workshop in any case, and won’t have much internet
access for the two days I am traveling.) <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The “it from bit” view was developed (after its origins for other reasons I will come to) partly to pose questions about black holes that cannot be posed in
terms of energy. It also applies to any horizon, including event and particle horizons. Whatever the answer, it permits well-posed questions that have not been able to be posed in other terms, at least so far.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The “it from bit” view is independent of, but strongly recommends a computational view. I have argued for a transfer of information view of causation on independent
philosophical grounds as a development of Russell’s at-at view of causation. The two approaches converge nicely.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">My understanding of the “it from bit” view does not require a binary logic of causation, but emergence of information comes from bifurcations (Layzer, Frautschi,
Collier, among others). So that is another happy convergence of two approaches. I see no reason why trifurcations and other higher order splits might not be possible, if unlikely. This is an empirical question, but makes no difference to the underlying mathematics,
which takes base 2 logarithms by convention, for convenience. I don’t see this issue as empirical in itself, but the convenience has some empirical force.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The stronger “it from bit” view that applies to everything was due originally to Wheeler, not any of the physicists mentioned so far, and supported by Gell-Mann.
Their reason is that empirical values in quantum mechanics often have been shown to arise from asymmetries, and they assume this will continue (proton spin is one notable current problem, but the problem is being pursued by this method, to the best of my understanding).
My former student Scott Muller was able to show that asymmetries in a system assign a unique information content in the it from bit sense. In any case, the view has an empirical motivation, and has produced empirically satisfying results, if not universally
so far.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">With all due respect, Joseph, the scientists I have mentioned have been motivated by empirical issues (problems), not dogma, but you are not working on empirical
problems. I have argued that the approach is motivated primarily by empirical issues, and it is simply wrong to attribute it to “authority”, since anyone in principle has access to the empirical issues and can make their own proposals. I have not seen these
forthcoming for the issues involved.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I will shut up now.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Fis [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joseph Brenner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> June 13, 2015 10:16 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> fis<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#E4E4E4"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" title="joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">Joseph Brenner</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" title="fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> Saturday, June 13, 2015 10:13 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> Fw: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Dear Colleagues,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I completely agree with Krassimir's position and on the importance of the issue on which it taken. Neither he nor I wish to say that there cannot be models and insights for
science in religious beliefs, such as the Kabbala, but then John's diagram would be more appropriate if it had
<em><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">En Sof</span></em> at the center rather than It-from-Bit.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The statement "It-from-Bit is just information", further, requires analysis: do we 1) accept this as dogma, including the implied limitation of information to separable binary
entities? or 2) assume that the universe is constituted by complex informational processes, in which the term 'It-from-Bit' is misleading at best, and should be avoided?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I feel particularly uncomfortable when dogmatic computational views such as those of Lloyd and Davies are presented as authoritative without comment, except by appeal to the
authority of 'some physicists'. Those FISers who would like to see a reasonably considered rebuttal might look at my article in
<em><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Information</span></em>: "The Logic of the Physics of Information".</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Best wishes,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Joseph</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#E4E4E4"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" title="markov@foibg.com">Krassimir Markov</a> <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" title="Collierj@ukzn.ac.za">John Collier</a> ;
<a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu" title="ssalthe@binghamton.edu">Stanley N Salthe</a> ;
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" title="fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> Friday, June 12, 2015 11:18 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Dear John and Stan,</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Your two hierarchies are good only if you believe in God.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">But this is belief, not science.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Sorry, nothing personal!</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Friendly regards</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Krassimir</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" title="Collierj@ukzn.ac.za">John Collier</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu" title="ssalthe@binghamton.edu">Stanley N Salthe</a> ;
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" title="fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing,
and Information - apologies!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Not quite the same hierarchy, but similar:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><img border="0" width="477" height="461" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D0A5D6.D997C110"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree with this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Chemical information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most physiological systems.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> Fis [<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stanley N Salthe<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 12, 2015 3:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> fis<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Pedro -- Your list:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">physical, biological, social, and Informational</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">is implicitly a hierarchy -- in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the physical subsuming the biological and the biological subsuming the social. But where should information appear? Following
Wheeler, we should have:</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">{informational {physicochemical {biological {social}}}}</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">STAN</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are drawing sort of the border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on the interrelationship between computation and information is an
essential matter. In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, whenever life cycles are involved and meaningfully "touched", there is info; while the mere info circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on any life-cycle relevant aspect,
may be taken as computation. The distinction between both may help to consider more clearly the relationship between the four great domains of sceince: physical, biological, social, and Informational. If we adopt a pan-computationalist stance, the information
turn of societies, of bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces to applying computer technologies. I think this would be a painful error, repeating the big mistake of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed the sciences of the artificial and
reduced the nascent info science to library science. People like Alex Pentland (his "social physics" 2014) are again taking the wrong way... Anyhow, it was nicer talking face to face as we did in the past conference!<br>
<br>
best ---Pedro<br>
<br>
Ken Herold wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">FIS:<br>
<br>
Sorry to have been too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I did not intend to substitute for the Information Science thread an alternative way of philosophy or computing. The references I listed are indicative of some bad thinking as well as good
ideas to reflect upon. Our focus is information and I would like to hear how you might believe the formal relational scheme of Rosenbloom could be helpful?<br>
<br>
Ken<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Ken Herold<br>
Director, Library Information Systems<br>
Hamilton College<br>
198 College Hill Road<br>
Clinton, NY 13323<br>
<a href="tel:315-859-4487" target="_blank">315-859-4487</a><br>
<a href="mailto:kherold@hamilton.edu" target="_blank">kherold@hamilton.edu</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:kherold@hamilton.edu" target="_blank">kherold@hamilton.edu</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
Pedro C. Marijuán<br>
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<br>
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud<br>
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)<br>
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X<br>
50009 Zaragoza, Spain<br>
Tfno. <a href="tel:%2B34%20976%2071%203526" target="_blank">+34 976 71 3526</a> (& 6818)<br>
<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><br>
<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><br>
-------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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