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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Paul Davies believes in something like that. The other “it from bit”ers, no. So I don’t know why you say that, Krassimir. I took the structure below directly
from uses that appear in scientific sources, not from some a priori consideration. Each nesting generates hypotheses that can be tested (and has). I find the unification, which involves similar methods at each nesting, attractive methodologically. Not everyone
does. But I don’t think it is more than the sort of usual abductive inference that is common in science. The proof, of course, is in the productivity in producing testable and eventually tested hypotheses, not in any a priori belief.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Krassimir Markov [mailto:markov@foibg.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> June 12, 2015 11:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John Collier; Stanley N Salthe; fis<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Dear John and Stan,</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Your both hierarchies are good only if you believe in God.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">But this is believe, not science.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Sorry, nothing personal!</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Friendly regards</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Krassimir</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" title="Collierj@ukzn.ac.za">John Collier</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu" title="ssalthe@binghamton.edu">Stanley N Salthe</a> ;
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" title="fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing,
and Information - apologies!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Not quite the same hierarchy, but similar:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><img border="0" width="477" height="461" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D0A5BE.4B3DB950"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree with this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Chemical information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most physiological systems.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> Fis [<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stanley N Salthe<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 12, 2015 3:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> fis<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Pedro -- Your list:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">physical, biological, social, and Informational</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">is implicitly a hierarchy -- in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the physical subsuming the biological and the biological subsuming the social. But where should information appear? Following
Wheeler, we should have:</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">{informational {physicochemical {biological {social}}}}</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">STAN</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are drawing sort of the border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on the interrelationship between computation and information is an
essential matter. In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, whenever life cycles are involved and meaningfully "touched", there is info; while the mere info circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on any life-cycle relevant aspect,
may be taken as computation. The distinction between both may help to consider more clearly the relationship between the four great domains of sceince: physical, biological, social, and Informational. If we adopt a pan-computationalist stance, the information
turn of societies, of bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces to applying computer technologies. I think this would be a painful error, repeating the big mistake of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed the sciences of the artificial and
reduced the nascent info science to library science. People like Alex Pentland (his "social physics" 2014) are again taking the wrong way... Anyhow, it was nicer talking face to face as we did in the past conference!<br>
<br>
best ---Pedro<br>
<br>
Ken Herold wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">FIS:<br>
<br>
Sorry to have been too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I did not intend to substitute for the Information Science thread an alternative way of philosophy or computing. The references I listed are indicative of some bad thinking as well as good
ideas to reflect upon. Our focus is information and I would like to hear how you might believe the formal relational scheme of Rosenbloom could be helpful?<br>
<br>
Ken<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Ken Herold<br>
Director, Library Information Systems<br>
Hamilton College<br>
198 College Hill Road<br>
Clinton, NY 13323<br>
<a href="tel:315-859-4487" target="_blank">315-859-4487</a><br>
<a href="mailto:kherold@hamilton.edu" target="_blank">kherold@hamilton.edu</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:kherold@hamilton.edu" target="_blank">kherold@hamilton.edu</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
Pedro C. Marijuán<br>
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<br>
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud<br>
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)<br>
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X<br>
50009 Zaragoza, Spain<br>
Tfno. <a href="tel:%2B34%20976%2071%203526" target="_blank">+34 976 71 3526</a> (& 6818)<br>
<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><br>
<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
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