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-------- Original Message --------
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellpadding="0"
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<th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">Subject: </th>
<td>RE: [Fis] RV: THE FOURTH GREAT DOMAIN OF SCIENCE:
INFORMATIONAL? (R.Capurro)</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">Date: </th>
<td>Tue, 19 May 2015 16:02:53 +0000</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">From: </th>
<td>John Collier <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za"><Collierj@ukzn.ac.za></a></td>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Rafael,
Joseph, list members,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">That
is an interesting way of putting it, but I think the answer is yes.
C.S. Peirce’s pragmatacism is aimed at doing exactly that. Mathematical
structures and other structural models have no <a
name="_MailEndCompose">implication of reality in the sense that
reality is contingent, so we need a way to test applications. For
Peirce, this is against our expectations of reality, which give meaning
to the models in particular applications (pragmatic maxim).<o:p></o:p></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This
goes some way to responding to Joseph, who says:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;"
lang="EN-US">When John C. talks about "references crossing ecology,
management and political science", what is of interest to me and
perhaps others is the 'substance' so to speak of the crossing. To make
things difficult (rather than easy for a change), let us assume that
this substance includes, but is not limited to common assumptions and
common attitudes. (My informational exchanges today are more
interdisciplinary because I am paying more attention to the way in
which information is processed in the different disciplines.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Peirce’s
maxim goes a long way towards getting at the substance (you don’t need
his categories to apply his pragmatic maxim), and should be sufficient,
but I would agree that it would be easier if there are shared
presuppositions, domain specific (or not so domain specific) paradigms
in Kuhn’s sense. Because we can’t fully express our presuppositions
(Polanyi, Quine, Wittgenstein, Barwise and Perry) our ideas can never
be made fully clear without their losing anything but tautological
sense. So common ground is not always easy to find, and it requires a
fair degree of cooperation and willingness to compromise, especially on
what seem to be certainties.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Joseph
also says:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;"
lang="EN-US">The task then becomes to express the 'substance' in
informational terms. What informational terms are possible that are
<b>not</b> numbers or <i>ad hoc</i> Peircean categories? The first
thing I see is that the corresponding logic and category theory must
be non-standard or it will miss the interactions and overlaps between
disciplines. The next thing might be to change to a process
perspective, looking at the way in which the disciplines, considered as
informational entities, influence one another, and find some formal but
non-mathematical language for referring to this. Are there any
suggestions for such a language?</span><span style="color: windowtext;"
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I
think that “nonstandard” here requires at least that noncomputability
is allowed. I have written ab out this in my discussion of an
informational view of causal connection (or transfer of causation – a
version of Russell’s ‘at-at’ approach) in
</span><a
href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier/papers/CollierJohn%20formatted.pdf"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Information,
causation and computation</span></a><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> (2012. </span><a
href="http://astore.amazon.co.uk/books-books-21/detail/9814295477"><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Information
and Computation:</span></i></a><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> Essays
on Scientific and Philosophical Understanding of Foundations of
Information and Computation</span></i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">,
Ed by Gordana Dodig Crnkovic and Mark Burgin, World Scientific). It
probably requires more as well, depending on what we mean by
‘nonstandard’. I think of nonstandard analysis as an example, but
perhaps Joseph has more in mind, or something different.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;"
lang="EN-US"> Rafael Capurro [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rafael@capurro.de">mailto:rafael@capurro.de</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> May 19, 2015 3:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John Collier; Joseph Brenner; PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN
FERNANDEZ; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] RV: THE FOURTH GREAT DOMAIN OF SCIENCE:
INFORMATIONAL? (R.Capurro)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">then the problem is, how can a 'realist' detach
theoretical problems from the real problems of the real world.<br>
Rafael<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">An
earlier version was blocked due to the large set of earlier messages.
Usually I delete them if they are not relevant. I have done that this
time.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">John</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear
fis list,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">List,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Popper
is famous for his Three Worlds model, in which ideas sit out there in
their own world (the others are material and mental, roughly). The
problems approach, I think, is directed at this world. However I think
that systems theorists should agree at least that there are general
problems that involve many different disciplines (Rosen calls them
sometime metaphors, but he means mathematical or structural Formalisms
that have wide generality). By solving some of these general problems
we can facilitate the generation of solutions to more specific
problems, both theoretical and practical. That is what systems theory
is about.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Popper
considered himself a realist, but thought that the object of theory
(problem solutions) was verisimilitude. Exactly what that means is
still a matter of debate.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I
agree with Joseph about the usefulness of the bibliometric work. I
found it interesting, working in ecology right now, that despite many
ecologists accepting that there is a socio-ecological system that
requires study to solve ecological problems, that there were few if any
references crossing ecology and management and political science. That
reflects my reading in the fields.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">John</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US"> Fis [<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joseph Brenner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> May 17, 2015 11:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ; <a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">
fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] RV: THE FOURTH GREAT DOMAIN OF SCIENCE:
INFORMATIONAL? (R.Capurro)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Dear All,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">I agree
with Rafael that there is an anti-realist flavor to Popper's concept of
problems. However, it indicates to me an intiution that there is
something important going on between disciplines. This is a dynamic
aspect which I feel is not captured by diagrams such as Loet's :-) in
which the connections between disciplines are represented by sets of
lines.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">I would
not be so hard as Dino on bibliometrics as such, but I think that once
classifications and maps have been established, it is important to talk
about where to go next.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Best
wishes,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Joseph</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
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