<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
Hi Terry,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I have used the term ‘perception’ in referring to in-formation that affects internal structure or dynamics. This would contrast with forms of potential information that might pass through the system without being ‘perceived’. For example, we
have a finite number of mechanisms we call senses, each of which is sensitive to particular modes of information we encounter in our environment, but we are not able to perceive every form of information that we encounter (e.g., UV light). I think you are
using the term ‘interpretation’ to describe the same thing. Do you agree? Do you think the notions of perception and interpretation are effectively the same thing?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cheers,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Guy</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div apple-content-edited="true" class="">Guy Hoelzer, Associate Professor<br class="">
Department of Biology<br class="">
University of Nevada Reno<br class="">
<br class="">
Phone: 775-784-4860<br class="">
Fax: 775-784-1302<br class="">
<a href="mailto:hoelzer@unr.edu" class="">hoelzer@unr.edu</a> </div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 24, 2015, at 10:22 AM, Terrence W. DEACON <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" class="">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
Hi Pedro,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Indeed, you capture a fundamental point of my work. I entirely agree with your comment about living processes and their internal "informative" organization. The three exceedingly simple molecular model systems (forms of autogenesis) that I discuss
toward the end of the paper were intended to exemplify a minimal life-like unit that—because of its self-reconstituting and self-repairing features—could both exemplify an origin of life transition and a first simplest system exhibiting interpretive competence.
It is only because these autogenic systems respond to disruption of their internal organizational coherence that they can be said to also interpret aspects of their environment with respect to this. My goal in this work is to ultimately provide a physico-chemical
foundation for a scientific biosemiotics, which is currently mostly exemplified by analogies to human-level semiotic categories.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thank you for your thoughtful comments and your mediation of these discussions.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Sincerely, Terry</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank" class="">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
<u class=""></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" class="">Dear Terry and colleagues,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
I hope you don't mind if I send some suggestions publicly. First, thank you for the aftermath, it provides appropriate "closure" to a very intense discussion session. Second, I think you have encapsulated very clearly an essential point (at least in my opinion):<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<span class=""><br class="">
<i class="">"Among these givens is the question of what is minimally necessary for<br class="">
a system or process to be interpretive, in the sense of being able to utilize present<br class="">
intrinsic physical properties of things to refer to absent or<br class="">
displaced properties or phenomena. This research question is ignorable<br class="">
when it is possible to assume human or even animal interpreters as<br class="">
part of the system one is analyzing. At some point, however, it<br class="">
becomes relevant to not only be more explicit about what is being<br class="">
assumed, but also to explain how this interpretive capacity could<br class="">
possibly originate in a universe where direct contiguity of causal<br class="">
influence is the rule."<br class="">
<br class="">
</i></span>My suggestion concerns the absence phenomenon (it also has appeared in some previous discussion in this list --notably from Bob's). You imply that there is an entity capable of dynamically building upon an external absences, OK quite clear, but
what about "internal absences"? I mean at the origins of communication there could be the sensing of the internal-- lets call it functional voids, needs, gaps, deficiencies, etc. Cellularly there are some good arguments about that, even in the 70's there was
a "metabolic code" hypothesis crafted on the origins of cellular signaling. For instance, one of the most important environmental & internal detections concerns cAMP, which means "you/me are in an energy trouble"... some more evolutionary arguments can be
thrown. Above all, this idea puts the life cycle and its self-production needs in the center of communication, and in the very origins of the interpretive capabilities. Until now I have not seen much reflections around the life cycle as the true provider
of both communications and meanings, maybe it conduces to new avenues of thought interesting to explore...<br class="">
<br class="">
All the best!<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><br class="">
--Pedro</font></span>
<div class="">
<div class="h5"><br class="">
<br class="">
Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:
<blockquote cite="http://mid55376A2E.2010302@aragon.es/" type="cite" class="">
<pre class="">Dear FIS colleagues,
Herewith the comments received from Terry several weeks ago. As I said
yesterday, the idea is to properly conclude that session, not to restart
the discussion. Of course, scholarly comments are always welcome, but
conclusively and not looking for argumentative rounds. Remember that in
less than ten days we will have a new session on info science and library
science. best --Pedro<big class=""><small class="">
<b class="">
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Retrospective comments on the January 2015 FIS discussion</b></small></big></pre>
<pre class=""><small class=""><big class="">Terrence Deacon (<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank" class="">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>)</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">During the bulk of my career since the early 1980s I studied brain</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">organization with a particular focus on its role in the production and</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">interpretation of communication in vertebrate animals and humans. One</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">core target of these studies was to understand the neurological</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">changes that led to the evolution of the human language capacity and</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">why it is so anomalous in the context of the other diverse</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">communication systems that have evolved. This work was largely</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">conducted using standard lab-based neuroscience tools—from axonal</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">tracer techniques, to fetal neural transplantation, to MRI imaging,</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">and more—and studying a diverse array of animal brains. Besides</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">evolutionary and developmental neuroscience, this path led me to</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">explore ethology, linguistics, semiotic theories, information theories</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">and the philosophical issues that these research areas touched upon.</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">Indeed, my first co-authored book was not on neuroscience but on the</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">design of the early Apple desktop computers. So I came at the issues</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">explored in my FIS essay from this diverse background. This has led me</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">to pose what may be more basic questions than are usually considered,</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">and to reconsider even the most unquestioned assumptions about the</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">nature of information and the origins of its semiotic properties.</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">I am aware that many who are following this discussion have a</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">career-long interest in some aspect of human communication or</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">computation. In these realms many researchers —including many of</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">you— have provided sophisticated analytical tools and quite extensive</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">theories for describing these processes. Though it may at first seem</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">as though I am questioning the validity of some of this (now accepted)</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">body of theory, for the most part I too find this adequate for the</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">specific pragmatic issues usually considered. The essay I posted did</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">not critique any existing theory. It rather explored some assumptions</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">that most theories take for granted and need not address.</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">I believe, however, that there remain a handful of issues that have</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">been set aside and taken as givens that need to be reconsidered. For</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">the most part, these assumptions don't demand to be unpacked in order</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">to produce useful descriptions of communicative and information</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">processes at the machine or interpersonal level. Among these givens is</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">the question of what is minimally necessary for a system or process to</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">be interpretive, in the sense of being able to utilize present</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">intrinsic physical properties of things to refer to absent or</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">displaced properties or phenomena. This research question is ignorable</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">when it is possible to assume human or even animal interpreters as</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">part of the system one is analyzing. At some point, however, it</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">becomes relevant to not only be more explicit about what is being</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">assumed, but also to explain how this interpretive capacity could</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">possibly originate in a universe where direct contiguity of causal</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">influence is the rule. Although, this may appear to some readers as a</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">question that is merely of philosophical concern, I believe that</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">failure to consider it will impede progress in exploring some of the</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">most pressing scientific issues of our time, including both the nature</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">an origins of living and mental processes, and possibly even quantum</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">processes.</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">In this respect, my exposition was not in any respect critical of other</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">approaches but was rather an effort to solicit collaboration in digging</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">into issues that have —for legitimate pragmatic reasons— not been a</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">significant focus of most current theoretical analysis. I understand why</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">some readers felt that the whole approach was peripheral to their current</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">interests. Or who thought that I was re-opening debates that had long-ago</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">been set aside. Or who just thought that I was working at the wrong level,</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">on the conviction that the answer to such questions lies in other realms, </big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">e.g. quantum theories or panpsychic philosophies. To those of you who fell</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">into these categories, I beg your indulgence.</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">The issues involved are not merely of philosophical interest. They are of</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">critical relevance to understanding biological and neurological information.</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">So if there are any readers of this forum who are interested in the issue </big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">of the whether reference and significance are physically explainable irrespective</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">of human subjective observation, and who have been quietly reflecting on my</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">proposals, I would be happy to carry on an email dialogue outside of</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">this forum.</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">For the rest, thank you for your time, and the opportunity to present</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">these ideas.</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">Sincerely, Terrence Deacon (<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank" class="">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>)</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">-- </big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">Professor Terrence W. Deacon</big></small>
<small class=""><big class="">University of California, Berkeley</big></small>
</pre>
<small class=""><br class="">
</small><br class="">
<small class=""><br class="">
</small>
<pre cols="72" class=""><small class="">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. <a href="tel:%2B34%20976%2071%203526" value="+34976713526" target="_blank" class="">+34 976 71 3526</a> (& 6818)
<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank" class="">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__sites.google.com_site_pedrocmarijuan_&d=AwMFaQ&c=jifKnBYnyVBhk1h9O3AIXsy5wsgdpA1H51b0r9C8Lig&r=WWj6u_HZ1KhHL3nPIUsokA&m=yXTbcml8FuZklPref1XsPsZe9Z3SeAY6GJX5Xsxe1Xs&s=boPsZ7qpaqDGNSPsP0xrAiH6qxBLSUuLbX7D-tMjaNI&e=" target="_blank" class="">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
-------------------------------------------------
</small></pre>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<pre cols="72" class="">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. <a href="tel:%2B34%20976%2071%203526" value="+34976713526" target="_blank" class="">+34 976 71 3526</a> (& 6818)
<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank" class="">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__sites.google.com_site_pedrocmarijuan_&d=AwMFaQ&c=jifKnBYnyVBhk1h9O3AIXsy5wsgdpA1H51b0r9C8Lig&r=WWj6u_HZ1KhHL3nPIUsokA&m=yXTbcml8FuZklPref1XsPsZe9Z3SeAY6GJX5Xsxe1Xs&s=boPsZ7qpaqDGNSPsP0xrAiH6qxBLSUuLbX7D-tMjaNI&e=" target="_blank" class="">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
-------------------------------------------------
</pre>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<br clear="all" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<div class="gmail_signature">Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br class="">
University of California, Berkeley</div>
</div>
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Fis
mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</body>
</html>