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<p class="MsoNormal">Catching up on old mail since I have been dealing with visa and banking issues (someone got into my account the old way with phone calls and faxes and stole $650). Nothing is resolved yet, but I have some spare time from these grueling
necessities.<br>
<br>
First: All energy has form. Without differences energy would just be a uniform 0. So matter and energy do not differ in this respect.<br>
<br>
Second: In sufi (Islamic mystics) tradition the first mane of God is Hu. It is an aspiration cutting off silence from noise. All the names of God have an icon9ic sound (Allah is a downthrust from the head to the heart and back to the head). A friend of mine
who had studied with sufis for some time and was also a mathematician familiar with information theory suggested that this was the first distinction from which all others emerge, basically the distinction between something and nothing. This is in line with
the sufi tradition. We can find sufi influences in the rationalist philosophy of both Spinoza and Leibniz. Leibniz, of course, is known for his attempt to found existence on distinction.<br>
<br>
Third: I suspect that information and energy are the same at a very basic level, but they can become separated. Information is more closely tied to boundary conditions, which guide energy (and all change, as it turns out). These can be decoupled to a greater
or lesser degree. Once we get to biology there is a strong decoupling, as I have argued numerous times elsewhere in connection with my work with Brooks and Wiley in the 80s, and the energy and information budgets are thus also decoupled, though never entirely
separated. To prove this the common dimensional grounds of information and energy need to be established. I think that dimensional analysis gives us an equivalence by way of temperature, which is average kinetic energy per degree of freedom. Using Brillouin's
characterization of information in terms of the complement of entropy, it works out that information has dimensions of degrees of freedom, which makes some sense.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<br>
At 10:13 AM 2014-09-09, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">----- Original Message ----- <br>
<b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">Joseph Brenner</a> <br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu">Stanley N Salthe</a> ; <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">
fis</a> ; <a href="mailto:ulan@umces.edu">Robert Ulanowicz</a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 08, 2014 6:01 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] information.energy<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">Dear Stan, Bob and All,<br>
</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">This was a very interesting thread which I feel is worth coming back to. First of all, I see the attitudes of Stan and Bob as not mutually exclusive but complementary. What 'history' means in the 'dim region' where it all began
is pretty dim. Second, I agree with Stan's formulation that information implies more than one entity. This suggests to me that it, like energy, is a dualism, sharing some of the dualistic properties of that dim region, somwhere between what is and, to use
Arthur Eddington's phrase, what is not. <br>
</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">Please do not ask me if and how the above idea can be proven. I consider it as worth mentioning in the context of the foundations of information science because it leaves the door open to the complexities and contradictions of
information you much earlier and later I have been struggling with.<br>
</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">It is even possible that Peirce's notions of Firstness and Secondness could be related to the above. The problems with these notions would be, then, a consequence of his trying to keep them separate to avoid contradictions, which
he did not like.<br>
</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">Best regards,<br>
</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">Joseph<br>
</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">----- Original Message ----- <o:p>
</o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">From: <a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu">
Stanley N Salthe</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">To: <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">
fis</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 4:21 PM
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Subject: Re: [Fis] information.energy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Bob -- Note that I was pointing out "a sense" in which information implies something different from energy -- especially in the context of dialectics, which is the basis of Joseph's approach. There can be no 'precipitated'
energy (matter) without some kind of form, realizing one or some constraints, but the concept of information (its history) tends to imply interaction.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
STAN <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 11:13 PM, Robert E. Ulanowicz <<a href="mailto:ulan@umces.edu">ulan@umces.edu</a>> wrote:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">> Stanley N Salthe <<a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu">ssalthe@binghamton.edu</a>>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">> 9:32 AM (0 minutes ago) <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">> to Joseph <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">> Joseph -- Commenting on: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">> ... <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">> Is there not also a sense that information implies more than one entity
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">> (sender-receiver, object-interpreter)? That too would tend to align with
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
> the idea of energy being primary.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">But Stan, you were one of the first to recognize the broader nature of
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">information as constraint. It is also inherent in structure (Collier's
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">"enformation"). Hence, wherever inhomogeneities exist, so does information
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
-- an argument for a common origin. Bob<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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