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I stand corrected. They produce more work for the same input. I think my
point stands, Bob.<br><br>
John<br><br>
At 12:21 AM 2014-09-05, Guy A Hoelzer wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">John, <br><br>
I think you are misreading Stan’s comments a little. [Stan:
please correct me if I am wrong about that.] I think it would be
fair to say that older car engines were less well fit "between the
energy gradient and the system attempting to utilize it”. Another
way of saying this is that the older car engine mechanism was less
efficient in dissipating that gradient, which translated into low gas
mileage. Those engines had to work harder in delivering the same
outcome (say driving 1 mile) than the newer, more efficient
engines. The capacity of the new engines to work harder than old
engines does not mean they work harder to produce the same outcome.
I don’t see the flaw in saying that working harder to achieve a constant
outcome degrades more energy. Clever design and selection can
indeed utilize information to yield greater efficiencies, which can only
approach the limit imposed by the 2nd law. It looks to me like you
and Stan are really in agreement here. Am I missing
something?<br><br>
Cheers,<br><br>
Guy<br><br>
On Sep 4, 2014, at 1:06 PM, John Collier
<<a href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za">Collierj@ukzn.ac.za</a>>
wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">S: In decline in the actual
material world that we inhabit. That is, the local world -- the
world of input and dissipation. I think the information problem may
be advanced if we try to explain why the energy efficiency of any work is
so poor, and gets worse the harder we work. This is the key local
phenomenon that needs to be understood.<br>
<br>
JC: Information can be used to improve efficiency.<br>
<br>
SS: That is not same question. Which is: Why is any work
constitutively poor in energy efficiency? I wrote a little essay (
Entropy: what does it really mean? <i>General Systems
Bulletin</i> 32:5-12.) suggesting that it results from a lack of
fittingness between energy gradient and the system attempting to utilize
it -- that is, that it is an information problem.<br>
<br>
Actually, it is part of the same question. As I have said many times, you
trivialize the idea of maximum entropy production if you relativize it to
all constraints. Howard has made this sort of point over and over as
well.<br>
<br>
But you are right that the important factor is an information
problem.<br>
<br>
I was once asked to referee a paper that argued that we could get around
2<sup>nd</sup> law degradation by using the exhaust heat in a clever way,
and keep doing this ad infinitum. I pointed out (sarcastically) that we
could do this, but only if we could make smaller and smaller people to
use the energy (apologies to Kurt Vonnegut).<br>
<br>
We get much more work out of gasoline engines than we used to, even
though most are smaller and work harder. So, no, it is not in general
true that harder work degrades more energy. Clever design (and selection)
can make a difference that is more significant.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<br>
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Professor John
Collier
collierj@ukzn.ac.za<br>
Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South
Africa<br>
T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292 F:
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