<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">List, Karassimir:<div><br></div><div>I found your definition of information to be a bit confusing because the language is a bit ambiguous to me.</div><div><br></div><div>While the definitions of the quadruple "make sense" from a rhetorical sense, one notion that is missing is the concept of what is the meaning of the central reference term: "physical world".</div><div><br></div><div>For example, please show how for your definition information works for the electrical nature of the carbon atom as defined by the Rutherford/Moseley experiments, which form the base of the atomic numbers. (Carbon has the physical world definition of "6".) How would this information be symbolized?</div><div><br></div><div>In other words, how does the concept of "quantity" enter into your definition?</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div><br></div><div>Jerry</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On Jul 21, 2014, at 4:40 AM, Krassimir Markov wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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<div style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<div>Dear Pridi,</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">An accordance with my understanding:</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div>In physical world there exist only reflections but not information.</div>
<div><font style="size: 4"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman"><strong><em>Information “<font size="5">i</font><strong><em><font style="size: 5" face="Times New Roman">"
</font></em></strong></em></strong></font>is the quadruple:</div>
<div><strong><em><font size="5" face="Times New Roman">i = (s, r, e,
I)</font></em></strong></div>
<div><font size="4">where</font></div>
<div><font size="4"><font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><strong><em>s</em></strong></font></font> is a source
entity, which is reflected in <font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><strong><em>r</em></strong></font></font></font></div>
<div><font size="4"><font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><strong><em>r </em></strong></font></font>is the entity
in which reflection of <font style="size: 4"><font style="face: "Times" new="" roman?=""><strong><em><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">s</font></em></strong></font></font> exists</font></div>
<div><font size="4"><font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><strong><em>e</em></strong></font></font> is an evidence
for the subject <font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><strong><em>I</em></strong></font></font> which proofs
for him and only for him that the reflection in <font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><strong><em>r</em></strong></font></font> reflects just
<font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><em><strong>s</strong>, <font size="4">i.e. the evidence
proofs for the subject what the reflection
reflects</font></em></font></font>.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"><font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><strong><em>I</em></strong></font></font> is information
subject who has possibility to make decisions in accordance with some goals –
human, animal, bacteria, artificial intelligent system, etc.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">In other words, <em><strong>information is a reflection, but
not every reflection is information</strong></em> – only reflections for which
the quadruple above exist are assumed as information by the corresponded
subjects.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">For different <font style="size: 4"><font style="face: "Times" new="" roman?=""><strong><em><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">I</font></em></strong></font></font>, information may be
different because of subjects’ finite memory and reflection
possibilities.</font></div>
<div>Because of this, a physical event with an infinite bandwidth may have
finite information content <strong><em><u>(for concrete information
subject)</u></em></strong><u>.</u></div>
<div><u></u> </div>
<div>Friendly regards</div>
<div>Krassimir</div>
<div> </div>
<div><u></u> </div>
<div><u></u> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>-----Original Message----- </div>
<div>From: Pridi Siregar </div>
<div>Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 10:35 AM </div>
<div>To: Jerry LR Chandler </div>
<div>Cc: Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information
Information Science </div>
<div>Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I was thinking about particles with mass...:-)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If anyone has an idea concerning my question thanks for the reply. I'm
totally ignorant concerning deep thoughts on the nature of information.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Pridi</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>----- Mail original -----</div>
<div>De: "Jerry LR Chandler" <<a href="mailto:jerry_lr_chandler@me.com">jerry_lr_chandler@me.com</a>></div>
<div>À: "Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information
Information Science" <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>></div>
<div>Cc: "John Collier" <<a href="mailto:collierj@ukzn.ac.za">collierj@ukzn.ac.za</a>>, "Pridi Siregar"
<<a href="mailto:pridi.siregar@ibiocomputing.com">pridi.siregar@ibiocomputing.com</a>></div>
<div>Envoyé: Dimanche 20 Juillet 2014 05:12:53</div>
<div>Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Pridi:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Are you mixing apples with citrus fruits?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Pure elastic collision are pre-suppose mass particles.</div>
<div>Electrical particles in this context do what?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Cheers</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Jerry</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>On Jul 18, 2014, at 3:21 AM, Pridi Siregar wrote:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>> Dear John and all,</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> The limiting case of the particle collision (pure elastic collision)
can be represented by a dirac impulse whose spectral content ranges over all the
frequencies. I have a question: What does it mean to have a physical event with
an infinite bandwith while its information content is finite ?</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> Best</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> Pridi</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> ----- Mail original -----</div>
<div>> De: "John Collier" <<a href="mailto:collierj@ukzn.ac.za">collierj@ukzn.ac.za</a>></div>
<div>> À: <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>, "Pedro C. Marijuan"
<<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></div>
<div>> Envoyé: Mardi 15 Juillet 2014 07:19:50</div>
<div>> Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> Dear fis members,</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> I don't think that granularity per se is a </div>
<div>> necessary basis for the application of </div>
<div>> information theory to analog channels. In some </div>
<div>> cases it might be, and I agree that studying the </div>
<div>> relations between analog (continuous) and digital </div>
<div>> (discrete) processes is likely to be both </div>
<div>> interesting and productive. However the bandwidth </div>
<div>> of an analog channel typically can be defined </div>
<div>> even if there is no discreteness, for example if </div>
<div>> the information bearing process consists of waves </div>
<div>> so that the information bearing capacity is </div>
<div>> limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical </div>
<div>> processes are cyclical in some way and thus have </div>
<div>> a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a </div>
<div>> collision between particles that carries momentum </div>
<div>> from one to another. I can't think offhand right </div>
<div>> now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in </div>
<div>> such cases there is a finite amount of </div>
<div>> information transferred. In any case, Shannon </div>
<div>> discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth
looking at.</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> John</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:</div>
<div>>> I think I agree with Joseph Brenner </div>
<div>>> here. Analogue computing is linked to real </div>
<div>>> processes, while living beings find ways of </div>
<div>>> transducing information out of dynamical states. </div>
<div>>> The graininess that information theories rely on </div>
<div>>> to define measures may be directly linked </div>
<div>>> to physical limits in the information carriers </div>
<div>>> (such as photons) or they might be limitations </div>
<div>>> of the processing organism, extracting the </div>
<div>>> sufficient "difference that makes a difference". </div>
<div>>> And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view </div>
<div>>> analogue computing through pixellated perspectives.</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> I'm not sure if this is well known to members of </div>
<div>>> this list, but Bill Bialek's biophysics text is </div>
<div>>> a profound reflection of the interplay between </div>
<div>>> the analogue and the digital, with selection </div>
<div>>> pressure forcing the sufficiency of the grainy </div>
<div>>> "difference that makes a difference" towards a </div>
<div>>> necessity for organisms, and hence pushing </div>
<div>>> sensory systems close to the physical limits of information
transfer.</div>
<div>>> Cheers,</div>
<div>>> Sri</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> -------- Original message --------</div>
<div>>> From: Joseph Brenner</div>
<div>>> Date:14/07/2014 18:12 (GMT+00:00)</div>
<div>>> To: Pridi Siregar ,"Pedro C. Marijuan"</div>
<div>>> Cc: <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a></div>
<div>>> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> Dear Colleagues,</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> My first reaction to this suggested project is that the logic and
philosophy</div>
<div>>> of information (where I am more comfortable) would have little
to</div>
<div>>> contribute. However, analogue computation is an area in which
insights from</div>
<div>>> some complex theories of information might be useful. Analogue
computation</div>
<div>>> has always appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, as being closer to
real</div>
<div>>> processes and therefore in principle better able to model their
fuzzy,</div>
<div>>> qualitative aspects. But in some of the articles I've seen, the
authors seem</div>
<div>>> almost apologetic at not being able to claim the 'power' of the
digital</div>
<div>>> computer . . .</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> Best wishes,</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> Joseph</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> ----- Original Message -----</div>
<div>>> From: "Pridi Siregar"
<<a href="mailto:pridi.siregar@ibiocomputing.com">pridi.siregar@ibiocomputing.com</a>></div>
<div>>> To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></div>
<div>>> Cc: <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>></div>
<div>>> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 4:35 PM</div>
<div>>> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>>> Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you
might recall I'm</div>
<div>>>> interested in applications and I would be very keen on having
a</div>
<div>>>> brainstorming session that would include pure researchers
and</div>
<div>>>> application-oriented guys like me to explore technology
transfer</div>
<div>>>> opportunities. I don't know if this could be part of some
(possible)</div>
<div>>>> future agenda but I'm sure that business people may find it
more than</div>
<div>>>> worthwile to attend such meetings! I'm sure Plamen would be
interested</div>
<div>>>> too.</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> best!</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> Pridi</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> ----- Mail original -----</div>
<div>>>> De: "Pedro C. Marijuan"
<<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></div>
<div>>>> À: <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a></div>
<div>>>> Envoyé: Vendredi 11 Juillet 2014 14:41:42</div>
<div>>>> Objet: [Fis] FIS in Varna</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> Dear FISers,</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> The fis summer conference in Varna just took place 5-6 July
--our 20</div>
<div>>>> years of activities were celebrated too, FIS 20th. Rather
unfortunately</div>
<div>>>> not many people attended: half dozen from Spain related to
Juan</div>
<div>>>> Castellanos and me (from Madrid and Zaragoza); and a few
parties around</div>
<div>>>> Krassimir from Bulgaria and Ukraine. But we had a great
time</div>
<div>>>> (discussions and exchanges, banquets, beach) and the place is
really</div>
<div>>>> beautifull & prices quite affordable. The idea, quite
possible to</div>
<div>>>> realize, is that every year that we do not have a
plenary fis or isis</div>
<div>>>> conference, we arrange a small summer school in Varna.</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> Among the exchanges this year, the retinue of "basic concepts"
around</div>
<div>>>> information generated the most intense debate--is there any
concept</div>
<div>>>> prior to information? Joseph's contribution was also discussed
by</div>
<div>>>> Krassimir addressed to the Russian colleagues (in Russian).
Computer</div>
<div>>>> related ontologies, new schemes to handle Big Data, and
brain</div>
<div>>>> exploration through AI and EEG by a very advanced
Egyptian team were</div>
<div>>>> quite exciting discussion topics too. For the future, we think
that</div>
<div>>>> spinoff companies could be enticed to participate, developing
new</div>
<div>>>> products and taking profit from some of those initiatives. In
any case,</div>
<div>>>> the interaction with brilliant ITHEA colleagues from Bulgaria,
Russia,</div>
<div>>>> Ukraine, Armenia, Belarus, Egypt... is a valuable
experience itself.</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> And that's all!</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> best wishes---Pedro</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> --</div>
<div>>>> -------------------------------------------------</div>
<div>>>> Pedro C. Marijuán</div>
<div>>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group</div>
<div>>>> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud</div>
<div>>>> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)</div>
<div>>>> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X</div>
<div>>>> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain</div>
<div>>>> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)</div>
<div>>>> <a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a></div>
<div>>>> <a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a></div>
<div>>>> -------------------------------------------------</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> _______________________________________________</div>
<div>>>> Fis mailing list</div>
<div>>>> <a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a></div>
<div>>>> <a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> _______________________________________________</div>
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<div>>>> </div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> _______________________________________________</div>
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<div>>> <a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a></div>
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<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> ----------</div>
<div>> Professor John
Collier
<a href="mailto:collierj@ukzn.ac.za">collierj@ukzn.ac.za</a></div>
<div>> Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South
Africa</div>
<div>> T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292 F:
+27 (31) 260 3031</div>
<div>> <a href="Http://web.ncf.ca/collier">Http://web.ncf.ca/collier</a></div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> _______________________________________________</div>
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<div>> </div>
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