<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4">List, Krassimir:</font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4">(I have posted Krassimir's response below, since it may not have been distributed to the list.)</font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4">My question was not a metaphysical question about materiality, my body and other such philosophical question of import.</font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4">Rather, it is direct question about the sufficiency of the rhetoric of the proposal to define a theory of information.</font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4">The response saids:</font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; ">"Atom has no number in the reality, it has one in any information quadruple."</span></font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; "><br></span></font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; ">The physical, material concept of order is the empirical ground for enumerations of physical chemistry.</span></font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; "><br></span></font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px;">The concept of "atomic number" is central to elemental quantum mechanics as well as atomic table of elements as well as molecular biology and of course, the practice of medicine itself.</span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px;"><br></span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px;">To assert that "</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; ">Atom has no number in the reality" is a denial of physical reality, is it not?</span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; "><br></span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; ">By logical extension,</span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; "> if "</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; ">Atom has no number in the reality", then the material world has no reality.</span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; ">And:</span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; ">If </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; ">the material world has no reality, </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; "> the proposed definition of "information" is self-contradictory.</span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; "><br></span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; ">This suggests to me that the proposed definition may need to altered to avoid the implication of self-contradiction.</span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; "><br></span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; ">Cheers</span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; "><br></span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; ">Jerry</span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; "><br></span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 19px; "><br></span></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4">Dear Jery,</font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4"></font> </div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4">Thank you for interesting remark.</font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4"></font> </div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4">Physical world means all material reality.</font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4">A special case of it are living creatures.</font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4"><font style="size: 4px; "></font></font> </div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font style="size: 4px; ">Your example is good for discussion – somewhere the Rutherford/Moseley experiments had been reflected to be further analyzed, i.e. we have information quadruple including scientists who assign atomic numbers. Atom has no number in the reality, it has one in any information quadruple. Of course, here we have very long chain of reflections and corresponded quadruples.</font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font style="size: 4px; "></font> </div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4"><font style="size: 4px; ">Ideal entities are reflections (information) in our brain and are so material as we are. This is long story about information models ... including your example ...</font></font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4"></font> </div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4">Friendly regards</font></div><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 19px; "><font size="4">Krassimir</font></div></div><div><font size="4"><br></font></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Jul 21, 2014, at 12:33 PM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">List, Karassimir:<div><br></div><div>I found your definition of information to be a bit confusing because the language is a bit ambiguous to me.</div><div><br></div><div>While the definitions of the quadruple "make sense" from a rhetorical sense, one notion that is missing is the concept of what is the meaning of the central reference term: "physical world".</div><div><br></div><div>For example, please show how for your definition information works for the electrical nature of the carbon atom as defined by the Rutherford/Moseley experiments, which form the base of the atomic numbers. (Carbon has the physical world definition of "6".) How would this information be symbolized?</div><div><br></div><div>In other words, how does the concept of "quantity" enter into your definition?</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div><br></div><div>Jerry</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On Jul 21, 2014, at 4:40 AM, Krassimir Markov wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<div>Dear Pridi,</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">An accordance with my understanding:</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div>In physical world there exist only reflections but not information.</div>
<div><font style="size: 4"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman"><strong><em>Information “<font size="5">i</font><strong><em><font style="size: 5" face="Times New Roman">"
</font></em></strong></em></strong></font>is the quadruple:</div>
<div><strong><em><font size="5" face="Times New Roman">i = (s, r, e,
I)</font></em></strong></div>
<div><font size="4">where</font></div>
<div><font size="4"><font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><strong><em>s</em></strong></font></font> is a source
entity, which is reflected in <font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><strong><em>r</em></strong></font></font></font></div>
<div><font size="4"><font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><strong><em>r </em></strong></font></font>is the entity
in which reflection of <font style="size: 4"><font style="face: "Times" new="" roman?=""><strong><em><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">s</font></em></strong></font></font> exists</font></div>
<div><font size="4"><font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><strong><em>e</em></strong></font></font> is an evidence
for the subject <font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><strong><em>I</em></strong></font></font> which proofs
for him and only for him that the reflection in <font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><strong><em>r</em></strong></font></font> reflects just
<font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><em><strong>s</strong>, <font size="4">i.e. the evidence
proofs for the subject what the reflection
reflects</font></em></font></font>.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"><font face="Times New Roman"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><strong><em>I</em></strong></font></font> is information
subject who has possibility to make decisions in accordance with some goals –
human, animal, bacteria, artificial intelligent system, etc.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">In other words, <em><strong>information is a reflection, but
not every reflection is information</strong></em> – only reflections for which
the quadruple above exist are assumed as information by the corresponded
subjects.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">For different <font style="size: 4"><font style="face: "Times" new="" roman?=""><strong><em><font style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">I</font></em></strong></font></font>, information may be
different because of subjects’ finite memory and reflection
possibilities.</font></div>
<div>Because of this, a physical event with an infinite bandwidth may have
finite information content <strong><em><u>(for concrete information
subject)</u></em></strong><u>.</u></div>
<div><u></u> </div>
<div>Friendly regards</div>
<div>Krassimir</div>
<div> </div>
<div><u></u> </div>
<div><u></u> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>-----Original Message----- </div>
<div>From: Pridi Siregar </div>
<div>Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 10:35 AM </div>
<div>To: Jerry LR Chandler </div>
<div>Cc: Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information
Information Science </div>
<div>Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I was thinking about particles with mass...:-)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If anyone has an idea concerning my question thanks for the reply. I'm
totally ignorant concerning deep thoughts on the nature of information.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Pridi</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>----- Mail original -----</div>
<div>De: "Jerry LR Chandler" <<a href="mailto:jerry_lr_chandler@me.com">jerry_lr_chandler@me.com</a>></div>
<div>À: "Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information
Information Science" <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>></div>
<div>Cc: "John Collier" <<a href="mailto:collierj@ukzn.ac.za">collierj@ukzn.ac.za</a>>, "Pridi Siregar"
<<a href="mailto:pridi.siregar@ibiocomputing.com">pridi.siregar@ibiocomputing.com</a>></div>
<div>Envoyé: Dimanche 20 Juillet 2014 05:12:53</div>
<div>Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Pridi:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Are you mixing apples with citrus fruits?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Pure elastic collision are pre-suppose mass particles.</div>
<div>Electrical particles in this context do what?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Cheers</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Jerry</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>On Jul 18, 2014, at 3:21 AM, Pridi Siregar wrote:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>> Dear John and all,</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> The limiting case of the particle collision (pure elastic collision)
can be represented by a dirac impulse whose spectral content ranges over all the
frequencies. I have a question: What does it mean to have a physical event with
an infinite bandwith while its information content is finite ?</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> Best</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> Pridi</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> ----- Mail original -----</div>
<div>> De: "John Collier" <<a href="mailto:collierj@ukzn.ac.za">collierj@ukzn.ac.za</a>></div>
<div>> À: <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>, "Pedro C. Marijuan"
<<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></div>
<div>> Envoyé: Mardi 15 Juillet 2014 07:19:50</div>
<div>> Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> Dear fis members,</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> I don't think that granularity per se is a </div>
<div>> necessary basis for the application of </div>
<div>> information theory to analog channels. In some </div>
<div>> cases it might be, and I agree that studying the </div>
<div>> relations between analog (continuous) and digital </div>
<div>> (discrete) processes is likely to be both </div>
<div>> interesting and productive. However the bandwidth </div>
<div>> of an analog channel typically can be defined </div>
<div>> even if there is no discreteness, for example if </div>
<div>> the information bearing process consists of waves </div>
<div>> so that the information bearing capacity is </div>
<div>> limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical </div>
<div>> processes are cyclical in some way and thus have </div>
<div>> a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a </div>
<div>> collision between particles that carries momentum </div>
<div>> from one to another. I can't think offhand right </div>
<div>> now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in </div>
<div>> such cases there is a finite amount of </div>
<div>> information transferred. In any case, Shannon </div>
<div>> discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth
looking at.</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> John</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:</div>
<div>>> I think I agree with Joseph Brenner </div>
<div>>> here. Analogue computing is linked to real </div>
<div>>> processes, while living beings find ways of </div>
<div>>> transducing information out of dynamical states. </div>
<div>>> The graininess that information theories rely on </div>
<div>>> to define measures may be directly linked </div>
<div>>> to physical limits in the information carriers </div>
<div>>> (such as photons) or they might be limitations </div>
<div>>> of the processing organism, extracting the </div>
<div>>> sufficient "difference that makes a difference". </div>
<div>>> And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view </div>
<div>>> analogue computing through pixellated perspectives.</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> I'm not sure if this is well known to members of </div>
<div>>> this list, but Bill Bialek's biophysics text is </div>
<div>>> a profound reflection of the interplay between </div>
<div>>> the analogue and the digital, with selection </div>
<div>>> pressure forcing the sufficiency of the grainy </div>
<div>>> "difference that makes a difference" towards a </div>
<div>>> necessity for organisms, and hence pushing </div>
<div>>> sensory systems close to the physical limits of information
transfer.</div>
<div>>> Cheers,</div>
<div>>> Sri</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> -------- Original message --------</div>
<div>>> From: Joseph Brenner</div>
<div>>> Date:14/07/2014 18:12 (GMT+00:00)</div>
<div>>> To: Pridi Siregar ,"Pedro C. Marijuan"</div>
<div>>> Cc: <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a></div>
<div>>> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> Dear Colleagues,</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> My first reaction to this suggested project is that the logic and
philosophy</div>
<div>>> of information (where I am more comfortable) would have little
to</div>
<div>>> contribute. However, analogue computation is an area in which
insights from</div>
<div>>> some complex theories of information might be useful. Analogue
computation</div>
<div>>> has always appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, as being closer to
real</div>
<div>>> processes and therefore in principle better able to model their
fuzzy,</div>
<div>>> qualitative aspects. But in some of the articles I've seen, the
authors seem</div>
<div>>> almost apologetic at not being able to claim the 'power' of the
digital</div>
<div>>> computer . . .</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> Best wishes,</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> Joseph</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> ----- Original Message -----</div>
<div>>> From: "Pridi Siregar"
<<a href="mailto:pridi.siregar@ibiocomputing.com">pridi.siregar@ibiocomputing.com</a>></div>
<div>>> To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></div>
<div>>> Cc: <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>></div>
<div>>> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 4:35 PM</div>
<div>>> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna</div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>>> Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you
might recall I'm</div>
<div>>>> interested in applications and I would be very keen on having
a</div>
<div>>>> brainstorming session that would include pure researchers
and</div>
<div>>>> application-oriented guys like me to explore technology
transfer</div>
<div>>>> opportunities. I don't know if this could be part of some
(possible)</div>
<div>>>> future agenda but I'm sure that business people may find it
more than</div>
<div>>>> worthwile to attend such meetings! I'm sure Plamen would be
interested</div>
<div>>>> too.</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> best!</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> Pridi</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> ----- Mail original -----</div>
<div>>>> De: "Pedro C. Marijuan"
<<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></div>
<div>>>> À: <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a></div>
<div>>>> Envoyé: Vendredi 11 Juillet 2014 14:41:42</div>
<div>>>> Objet: [Fis] FIS in Varna</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> Dear FISers,</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> The fis summer conference in Varna just took place 5-6 July
--our 20</div>
<div>>>> years of activities were celebrated too, FIS 20th. Rather
unfortunately</div>
<div>>>> not many people attended: half dozen from Spain related to
Juan</div>
<div>>>> Castellanos and me (from Madrid and Zaragoza); and a few
parties around</div>
<div>>>> Krassimir from Bulgaria and Ukraine. But we had a great
time</div>
<div>>>> (discussions and exchanges, banquets, beach) and the place is
really</div>
<div>>>> beautifull & prices quite affordable. The idea, quite
possible to</div>
<div>>>> realize, is that every year that we do not have a
plenary fis or isis</div>
<div>>>> conference, we arrange a small summer school in Varna.</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> Among the exchanges this year, the retinue of "basic concepts"
around</div>
<div>>>> information generated the most intense debate--is there any
concept</div>
<div>>>> prior to information? Joseph's contribution was also discussed
by</div>
<div>>>> Krassimir addressed to the Russian colleagues (in Russian).
Computer</div>
<div>>>> related ontologies, new schemes to handle Big Data, and
brain</div>
<div>>>> exploration through AI and EEG by a very advanced
Egyptian team were</div>
<div>>>> quite exciting discussion topics too. For the future, we think
that</div>
<div>>>> spinoff companies could be enticed to participate, developing
new</div>
<div>>>> products and taking profit from some of those initiatives. In
any case,</div>
<div>>>> the interaction with brilliant ITHEA colleagues from Bulgaria,
Russia,</div>
<div>>>> Ukraine, Armenia, Belarus, Egypt... is a valuable
experience itself.</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> And that's all!</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> best wishes---Pedro</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> --</div>
<div>>>> -------------------------------------------------</div>
<div>>>> Pedro C. Marijuán</div>
<div>>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group</div>
<div>>>> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud</div>
<div>>>> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)</div>
<div>>>> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X</div>
<div>>>> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain</div>
<div>>>> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)</div>
<div>>>> <a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a></div>
<div>>>> <a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a></div>
<div>>>> -------------------------------------------------</div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> _______________________________________________</div>
<div>>>> Fis mailing list</div>
<div>>>> <a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a></div>
<div>>>> <a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></div>
<div>>>> </div>
<div>>>> _______________________________________________</div>
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<div>>>> <a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a></div>
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<div>>>> </div>
<div>>> </div>
<div>>> _______________________________________________</div>
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<div>>> <a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a></div>
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<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> ----------</div>
<div>> Professor John
Collier
<a href="mailto:collierj@ukzn.ac.za">collierj@ukzn.ac.za</a></div>
<div>> Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South
Africa</div>
<div>> T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292 F:
+27 (31) 260 3031</div>
<div>> <a href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier">Http://web.ncf.ca/collier</a></div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> _______________________________________________</div>
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<div>> </div>
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_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>