From christophe.menant at hotmail.fr Wed Apr 1 14:55:44 2020 From: christophe.menant at hotmail.fr (Christophe Menant) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 12:55:44 +0000 Subject: [Fis] Fwd: whether this useful simulation is information, data or something else? In-Reply-To: References: <20200330094623.AD6AA4940507@dd38208.kasserver.com>, <20200330154543.C13504940507@dd38208.kasserver.com>, Message-ID: Restent with correct forum address Envoy? de mon iPhone D?but du message transf?r? : Exp?diteur: Christophe Menant > Date: 31 mars 2020 ? 12:09:13 UTC+2 Destinataire: "annette.grathoff at is4si.org" > Cc: Fis >, Krassimir Markov > Objet: R?p :? [Fis] whether this useful simulation is information, data or something else?? Dear Annette, Thanks for your answer to the question asked by Krassimir. What you say implicitly addresses information as agent dependent. An important point, I feel. Krassimir?s question was also about the differences between information and data, as introduced in his March 26 post (mental models with meaning as information vs mental models without meaning as data). Trying to define information can bring in the need to position it relatively to data, and with it questions about the definition of data, thus making the subject more complex. These subjects are indeed complex, but perhaps we keep them complex because we don?t take enough into account the different contexts, the audience, where the subjects apply. Perhaps we try to put together things that are too different. IT meeting participants talk about information as related to data, Shannon, coding and error rate. Biologist relate information to neural signals and chemical transmissions, philosophers consider semantic and syntax, psychologist look at pleasure and reality, an evolutionary approach puts the focus on meaning generation. And so on? The wordings of our questions can then look as coming from a melting pot containing ideas of Darwin, Bateson, Shannon, Boltzmann, Monod, Prigogine and others. This is very ambitious. Trying to put together the different contexts of a given concept may just be too ambitious for some concepts (think about politics, happiness, religion, ?.). When trying to define information perhaps we should take some more time to address the contexts, the different domains, and then try some domain related definitions. The next step being to see how these definitions can be part of a possible synergy. That idea is not new. Perhaps this has been addressed in the paper of 2018 Journal of Documentation you refer to (I didn?t succeed accessing it. Could you tell how to do?). All the best Christophe ________________________________ De : Fis > de la part de annette.grathoff at is4si.org > Envoy? : lundi 30 mars 2020 17:45 ? : markov at foibg.com >; fis at listas.unizar.es > Objet : Re: [Fis] whether this useful simulation is information, data or something else? Dear Krassimir, a very profound question. As you address me as Annette, not as GS, I would like to answer telling my personal opinion. I deem the subject "information study" as largely incomplete and thus cannot really give a profound answer to your question based on what I gathered - which is nicely collected in https://doi.org/10.1108/JD-05-2017-0077 (Rocchi, P., Resca, A. The creativity of authors in defining the concept of information, Journal of Documentation, 2018 74; 1074-1103) yet. I am helping myself by basing the concept of information on the physical basis which I experienced as useful, namely information being something which is stored and which influences selective regimes. Seeing this in an evolutionary context, i.e. based on starting with what science describes a s purely physical... continuing over kinetics and dynamics which science describes as physical-chemical where molecules and chemical regimes act on selection regimes... over the selective mechanisms which Biology knows as Natural selection, niche construction and community pre-cultures... arriving at our human and largely intention based decision making evaluation and judging regimes (keeping in mind the recursivity of the nested selective regimes), I would reason the following estimation: A simulation like the one which Sanderson generated is personal information for the receiver if the receiving (watching) person sees the video in a context where attention is high and expectation is neither too high nor as low as changing into certainty that the video is pure noise. Only then is it possible that some of the contents are stored in the memory and are capable of influencing the selective (intentional) decision making behavior of the receiver. Interestingly, if attention is expecting negative confirmation - in the example that the video will not be informative (e.g. because a colleague said that Sanderson made a video with false contents or one found that Sanderson used silly inappropriate colors when watching a previous video) - then the outcome can be very strongly dependent on initial conditions under which the video is watched. If the expectation for negative confirmation is disappointed, e.g. because the receiver sees that Sanderson hit the mark explaining with the simulation what one has read and understood as important just hours ago and one is amazed about how strong the contrast to the (negative) expectation is, the correction of negative expectation can make the informative event (according to Bateson/ Koestler and others: a kind of physically based change of mindset) even stronger. In this context it would be helpful if I was a psychologist with neurological knowledge. From psychology I remember the interesting concept of cognitive dissonance...just to imagine how much of general knowledge in addition to knowledge on initial conditions would be necessary to estimate the informative effect of data based messages on a human individuals. A simulation like the one which Sanderson generated is definitely and independently from context, information, namely IT information, since it is the outcome of technical information processing and reached the PC of the receiver by making a physical difference in the PC?s memory state (switching data represented by a collection of magnetized particles on spinning platters). For an animal like a dog, the video will not be personal information for the simple reason that its attention level is not activated by this type of information coming from intentional decision making regimes.The attention threshold of the dog is surmounted by fitting olfactory or acoustic and optical signals which proved important for survival (Biological selective regime) and well being in it?s pet environment (Biological+coevolutionary human Cultural selective regime) for the dog. The acoustic and visual signals which a dog could receive from a PC in its keeper?s flat which is playing Sanderson?s video could in best case attract the attention for a span of seconds when the animal confounds the sound or color structure from the machine as something of relevance for its bodily states (like hunger or expectation of signals from the keeper) but unless there has been conditioning on some of the possible signals, this attention will not last long. The dog will not stay with "understanding" the signals as referential to itself. So from this perspective, many many things of our daily lives I deem information; whether the information is physical, physico chemical, biological or intentional in its dynamics (or carries characteristica of any of the selective regimes that preceded its first appearance. A chain of selective influences which often leads down to the physical selective regime of "forces and entropy growth" (to cut a long story short)) is dependent on the complexity of the structure communicating the information and the selective regime evaluating it; It is dependent on the structures? evolutionary (including cultural evolution) history. The development of entirely new forms of information (storage and signal transmission) as well as new forms of information dynamics (just think of the handy "undo" function of your programs. Unthinkable in this form in all of nature?s preceding selective environments!) is also possible, based on the selective environments which are developing within and around them. Kind regards, Annette Krassimir Markov wrote on 30.03.2020 14:11 (GMT +02:00): Dear Annette and FIS Colleagues, The following question I had sent to Gordana offline due to the FIS limit of number of posts per week. I see it is still actual, so I resend it now. In line with the FIS discussion, I would kindly ask you to tell, in your view, whether this useful simulation is information, data or something else? Be healthy and in good spirit! Friendly greetings Krassimir From: annette.grathoff at is4si.org Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:46 PM To: gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdh.se ; fis at listas.unizar.es Subject: Re: [Fis] Excellent simulation Dear colleagues, Grant Sanderson (3blue1brown) did it again. Please do not tell me you never heard of him and his excellent YouTube science-knowledge visualization videos! He changed the interest of thousands of people for abstract mathematical ideas, making them concrete and more tangible by his excellent simulation videos. He originally came from the Khan Academy team as you can read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3Blue1Brown. This I say as Annette Grathoff, not as the General secretary: My personal opinion is that every scientist interested in informing curious people and raising interest in scientific knowledge should know his videos. This is how information about important concepts is enabled to spread many times faster than when relying solely on the classical ways. It does science well to spread channels like his, after you (not only) scientifically approved of the content. Best wishes and stay healthy, Annette Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic wrote on 29.03.2020 12:17 (GMT +02:00): Dear colleagues, Please have a look at this excellent simulation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxAaO2rsdIs&feature=youtu.be which makes me think about how powerful thinking tools that computation and information/data really offer. Stay safe and take care, Gordana ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Fis mailing list Fis at listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ---------- INFORMACISN SOBRE PROTECCISN DE DATOS DE CARACTER PERSONAL Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza. Puede encontrar toda la informacisn sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas Recuerde que si esta suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicacisn en el momento en que lo desee. http://listas.unizar.es ---------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karl.javorszky at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 16:39:28 2020 From: karl.javorszky at gmail.com (Karl Javorszky) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 16:39:28 +0200 Subject: [Fis] whether this useful simulation is information, data or something else? In-Reply-To: References: <20200330094623.AD6AA4940507@dd38208.kasserver.com> Message-ID: Dear Colleges, There emerges a rather well-defined concept of a ?bed? as a tool, in which to investigate the behaviour of a model undergoing simulation exercises. The conceptual infrastructure for a laboratory is present. Why don?t we work in a systematic, scientific fashion and find out, what modelling and simulating yields in knowledge. The idea is to put *a+b=c* in the cradle, and watch, how the multitude of true sentences begins self-organising. For the study of information, understanding the technical term of information is helpful, because at least one can say, that the further, the non-technical, the empirical interpretations of the term information are different to the technical understanding of information, namely in such points:; such a clarification would help to keep chasing the fairy. To clarify the technical meaning of information, one will need a mental exercise. One should imagine oneself as a Neanderthal to whom the workings of a pocket watch are explained. The concepts that allow the construction of a pocket watch are not yet in the mental inventory of the noble savage. The idea is, that quite a few cycles interact like the wheels and cogs in a pocket watch. There are only a limited number of possible next moves once one is in the process of predicting the next move in a process that is steered by two periodic changes. The instances of *a+b=c *are being continuously re-sorted, being subject to two periodic changes in circumstances, always in a position to obey the requirements to both of the periodic changes impose. (If the day/night periodicity suggests: move to warmer area, and the tide changes suggest: move to area less turbulent, the element is in possession of a path, with areas from-to.) The concept of a move is comparable to one tick of the watch, and is 1/3 of the standard 3 reorders that constitute a temporal and spatial moment with 3 rectangular axes. The moves happen by means of cycles. Arising from the fact of the elements being different among each other, the properties that differentiate the elements among each other transfer to these a linear, planar, and in some cases, spatial existence. The elements are by their properties joined in a wheel with other elements together with which they change place during a reorder. The mechanism of the pocket watch is comparable to an idealised Rubik cube, where concurrent wheels-cycles run, and the patterns on the faces of the cube are the appearances which one perceives and counts. Which combinations of elements can be contemporaneous is a solvable question, because the properties of the elements had given them places in linear sequences, positions on planes and at times spatial positions, too. The properties of the elements are like playing cards at the beginning of the game: not each of the possible impacts on the game of a property of an element will be necessarily played out. The point to make is, that a complete table could be generated which lists all possible games that can have taken place. We deal with a limited amount of being possibly different. The whole mechanism can be modelled by a limited number of wheels. Information in the technical sense is that part (those teeth) of the cog that is presently not in the clutch, is presently not engaged. In a Las Vegas machine: those symbols that are on the wheel but not presently in the window. This is the background, to which the assertive statement relates. The remaining alternatives are a part of the setup. Information is not generated, it has always been with us, the realised or realisable alternatives being an implication of the properties of the elements, the non-realised alternatives are as well a part of the package. The background to a logical statement is generated with the logical statement. Taking a closer look at the positions of *a+b=c* during periodic rearrangements, due to external circumstances influencing the habitat, would allow clarifying expectations vis a vis information. In its elementary form, information is simply the frame to the picture. As the sentences become more complex, the stage can be easily reached, where the inclusion, exclusion notation of group relations suddenly refers to the figures in the shadows: the truth and validity of sentences remains identical, whether they refer to states of the world in the foreground or in the background. Many more arguments could be put forward to encourage this learned society to investigate the patterns evolving when a collection of realisations of *a+b=c *is subjected to periodic rearrangements. A deeper understanding of the non-restrictive meanings ascribed to the word information can be achieved when these connotations are aligned to ideas of predictability and tenacity. There appears to exist a natural constant for truthfulness, inner consistence of a state of the assembly, which concept would sound interesting to philosophers, but to researchers in applied sciences, also. Best wishes wherever you are Karl Am Mo., 30. M?rz 2020 um 14:11 Uhr schrieb Krassimir Markov < markov at foibg.com>: > Dear Annette and FIS Colleagues, > > The following question I had sent to Gordana offline due to the FIS limit > of number of posts per week. > I see it is still actual, so I resend it now. > > In line with the FIS discussion, I would kindly ask you to tell, in your > view, whether this useful simulation is information, data or something else? > > Be healthy and in good spirit! > Friendly greetings > Krassimir > > > *From:* annette.grathoff at is4si.org > *Sent:* Monday, March 30, 2020 12:46 PM > *To:* gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdh.se ; fis at listas.unizar.es > *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Excellent simulation > > > Dear colleagues, > > Grant Sanderson (3blue1brown) did it again. Please do not tell me you > never heard of him and his excellent YouTube science-knowledge > visualization videos! He changed the interest of thousands of people for > abstract mathematical ideas, making them concrete and more tangible by his > excellent simulation videos. He originally came from the Khan Academy team > as you can read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3Blue1Brown. > > This I say as Annette Grathoff, not as the General secretary: My personal > opinion is that every scientist interested in informing curious people and > raising interest in scientific knowledge should know his videos. This is > how information about important concepts is enabled to spread many times > faster than when relying solely on the classical ways. It does science well > to spread channels like his, after you (not only) scientifically approved > of the content. > > Best wishes and stay healthy, > > Annette > > Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic wrote on 29.03.2020 12:17 (GMT +02:00): > > Dear colleagues, > > > > Please have a look at this excellent simulation: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxAaO2rsdIs&feature=youtu.be > > > > which makes me think about how powerful thinking tools > that computation and information/data really offer. > > > > Stay safe and take care, > > Gordana > > > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Fis mailing list > Fis at listas.unizar.es > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > ---------- > INFORMACISN SOBRE PROTECCISN DE DATOS DE CARACTER PERSONAL > > Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por > la Universidad de Zaragoza. > Puede encontrar toda la informacisn sobre como tratamos sus datos en el > siguiente enlace: > https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas > Recuerde que si esta suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de > baja desde la propia aplicacisn en el momento en que lo desee. > http://listas.unizar.es > ---------- > > _______________________________________________ > Fis mailing list > Fis at listas.unizar.es > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > ---------- > INFORMACI?N SOBRE PROTECCI?N DE DATOS DE CAR?CTER PERSONAL > > Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por > la Universidad de Zaragoza. > Puede encontrar toda la informaci?n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el > siguiente enlace: > https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas > Recuerde que si est? suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de > baja desde la propia aplicaci?n en el momento en que lo desee. > http://listas.unizar.es > ---------- > ------------ pr?xima parte ------------ Se ha borrado un adjunto en formato HTML... URL: From annette.grathoff at is4si.org Tue Apr 14 05:29:52 2020 From: annette.grathoff at is4si.org (annette.grathoff at is4si.org) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 05:29:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Fis] whether this useful simulation is information, data or something else? In-Reply-To: References: <20200330094623.AD6AA4940507@dd38208.kasserver.com> <20200330154543.C13504940507@dd38208.kasserver.com>

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<20200414032952.96ADD49403C8@dd38208.kasserver.com> Message-ID: Cari Karl, Annette, jerry e tuttti gli altri, permettetemi di ripetere con semplicit? e nella lingua pi? bella del mondo, qual ? l'italiano, quello che ho sostenuto sempre anch'io: DEFINIZIONE * informazione ? un processo col quale si d? e prende forma; * dis-informazione ? un processo con il quale degenera o degrada la forma; * tras-informazione ? un processo col quale la forma nel tempo si tras-forma. MISURA Varia secondo il diverso contesto o la differente tipologia di informazione o dis-informazione. TRASMISSIONE Significazione, informazione e comunicazione: triade semiotico-ermeneutica. Sempre Buona Pasqua, perch? la Pasqua non finisce mai per tutti: credenti e non credenti. Se Dio esiste, esiste per tutti. Se Dio non esiste, non esiste per nessuno. Un abbraccio affettuoso, pur stando lontani, ma non dal cuore o dalla mente. Francesco. Il giorno mar 14 apr 2020 alle ore 05:30 ha scritto: > Dear Christophe, Dear Jerry, Dear list, > > I hope you have enjoyed a happy Easter, at least as happy as possible > given the special circumstances! > > Dear Christophe, information is agent dependent, I think on this there is > a broad consensus. Information communication (the modulation of situation > dependent patterns onto a form of energy which is emitted/sent to the > environment and a receiving sensor capable of decoding the referentiality > to itself and its state from this connected over what Shannon called > channel) is additionally context dependent, channel dependent and often > experience dependent. That is why I think it makes sense to analyze > informative character of matter, energy or symbols inside the selective > regime which developed inside the same context or in a previous context > from which the actual context can be derived. > > Data are information in the context of computers and of IT-using humans > respectively humans analyzing data sheets, like heat is information for the > IR sensors of a hunting snake. Heat alone for example is not information, > it is highly incoherent electromagnetic radiation but of a frequency > spectrum which capacitates the IR sense sensitive for it (and the snake > searching for it) to picture the temporal evolution of its distribution > function into the motion pattern information of prey or else. Even lowly > differentiated and marginally filtered (or processed) energy leaking into a > broad channel can serve as information for a receiver when it can increase > contrast (e.g. by a sensitive sensor) to spot what it is seeking. > The way data are represented nevertheless can make informative effect (the > actual making of a difference and the probability for it) on a receiving > audience lower or higher independent from the fact that data *are *physically > information because they are stored and they can influence selective > regimes *and thus have* the potential to be informing. This is similar to > the record drifting in space: In my opinion it contains physical > information but to be informing it must surprise the crew of a spaceship or > be read out on a player. The degree of informing effect is also dependent > on context. > > >> When trying to define information perhaps we should take some more time > to >> address the contexts, the different domains, and then try some domain > related >> definitions > > I agree with you in principle, but I would like to take a more recursive > approach, looking for ?if you prefer that term ?meaning? ? which physical > information might have had in environments developed earlier and then look > at the differences of the actual environment compared to the earlier one. > For one reason this could safe some time and for another reason it could > generate surprising insights. Example: The huge imbalance in awareness > towards warning signals (analogous to ?bad news?) compared to signals of > non-threatening situations e.g. attracting to a food source was deeply > grounded by Natural Selection in the biologic selective regime. Like > unnecessary strong reactions in cases of e.g. arachnophobia, the > disequilibrium of attention given to signals of danger is in several > situations not as ?meaningful? for human life as it was when it ?probably- > became encoded into our genome. This also is one of the examples, where I > would ask for a concerted adaptation of our economically oriented selective > system, scrutinizing it for the probable basis of some preferences and a > possible reevaluation of their actual effect, use and legitimate authority > in our life. It could be supported by arguments coming from the study of > information. > > The paper I was citing does not present a synergy. On the contrary it > underlines the strong independence between theories and people promoting > them in our community. Unfortunately the author?s copy I received is for > private use only. But you should ask the author for a copy on Research > Gate. Often there are already several copies available for people > interested and asking for one. > > Dear Jerry, you are asking >> is the term ?matheosis? to[o] narrow to > generate the technical concepts you are seeking to unify? > > As far as I understand from your letter ?matheosis? is to be understood in > addition to semiosis and mereosis. I had to look up the term mereosis, > since I only heard of it in mathematical contexts and was not able to find > it outside of that context. As far as I researched it now, the term is > referring to representing the relation between a whole and its parts, > similar to what you mentioned earlier referring to homeopathic and > heteropathic compositions of causes in JS Mill (J. L. Bell; Whole and Part > in Mathematics; Axiomathes vol. 14,nr 4 (2004) in > http://cmsm4.math.md/Proceedings_CMSM4.pdf). Please correct me, if I got > that wrong! > > If you want me to interpret ?matheosis? as search for patterns to > formulate falsifiable conjectures on the search for ?????? as *knowledge*, > I could agree, but most of the time mathematics is associated with > arithmetic or number based proofs. Considering this, I am afraid the > definition is too narrow to generate the technical concepts I am especially > interested in ? like the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics or the Principle of > Stationary Action need to include the physical effect and its observation > to be evaluated. > I would not exclude mereosis and semiosis in my exploration, if you made > me to choose between the three. > > Stay free of Covid-19 symptoms and all the best! > > Annette > > --- > > Dr. Annette Grathoff > > Evolution of Information Processing Systems > > Vienna > > grathoff at icbm.de > > 06802341968 > > > > General Secretary of the > > International Society for the Study of Information (IS4SI) > > Annette.grathoff at is4si.org > > Jerry LR Chandler wrote on 12.04.2020 03:44 (GMT +02:00): > > Christophe, Annette, List: > > Thank you, Christophe for drawing together several important facts from > historical contributors, concepts from different disciplines and the suggestions > that contexts and domain differences may play a substantial role in the synthesis > of scientific information. > > I think this an important summary assertion about our decades of discussions and > the need to recognize the role of constraints in meanings of terms, propositions, > sentences, paragraphs, data forms, mathematical structures and all other aspects > of human communication. > > Philosophically, J S Mills (1842) recognized the need to separate homeopathic > communication from heteropathic communication / logic. > > Shannon?s success is a consequence of the use of mathematics (bits and bytes as > powers of 2) to correspond to highs and lows in waves (vibrations, electrical > frequency) in a mechanical manner between machines. Coupled with error > correction, Shannon?s method ensures an exact transmission between two physical > locations. Thus, the transmission process becomes completely independent of any > human wish, thought, desire, feeling, emotion, belief, action, reservation, > challenge, syntagma, adesse, relation, collation, sublation, illation, adduction, > abduction, induction, retroduction, deduction, synduction, etc. > > With this in mind, one can then separate the concept of informative communication > via Shannon technology between two human beings into three stages or steps or > processes or actions or functions or relations: > 1. Encoding a message (any message) into a transmissible form. > 2. Transmitting the form from location to location, perhaps from mind to mind, > 3. Decoding the received form. > > Christophe, was the intent of your message to request that the readers of this > list serve narrow the focus to the distinctions on these three clear and > distinctly different communicative processes of semiosos and mereosis? > > Or, should, in addition to semiosis and mereosis, should be also focus on the > process of ?matheosis?? (I coin the term ?matheosis? in an attempt to > express the proposals / propositions / processes that Annette is exploring. > > Annette, is the term ?matheosis? to narrow to generate the technical concepts > you are seeking to unify? > > Happy Easter Holidays to all. Stay safe and be Well as the natural dynamics > unfold in informative ways. > > Cheers > > Jerry > > > > > > > On Apr 1, 2020, at 7:55 AM, Christophe Menant > > wrote: > > > > Restent with correct forum address > > > > Envoy? de mon iPhone > > > > D?but du message transf?r? : > > > >> Exp?diteur: Christophe Menant >> >> > >> Date: 31 mars 2020 ? 12:09:13 UTC+2 > >> Destinataire: "annette.grathoff at is4si.org > >> >" > >> >> >> > >> Cc: Fis >> >>, Krassimir Markov > >> >> > >> Objet: R?p :? [Fis] whether this useful simulation is information, data or > >> something else?? > >> > >> > >> Dear Annette, > >> Thanks for your answer to the question asked by Krassimir. > >> What you say implicitly addresses information as agent dependent. An important > >> point, I feel. > >> Krassimir?s question was also about the differences between information and > >> data, as introduced in his March 26 post (mental models with meaning as > >> information vs mental models without meaning as data). Trying to define > >> information can bring in the need to position it relatively to data, and with > >> it questions about the definition of data, thus making the subject more > >> complex. > >> These subjects are indeed complex, but perhaps we keep them complex because we > >> don?t take enough into account the different contexts, the audience, where > >> the subjects apply. Perhaps we try to put together things that are too > >> different. > >> IT meeting participants talk about information as related to data, Shannon, > >> coding and error rate. Biologist relate information to neural signals and > >> chemical transmissions, philosophers consider semantic and syntax, > >> psychologist look at pleasure and reality, an evolutionary approach puts the > >> focus on meaning generation. And so on? > >> The wordings of our questions can then look as coming from a melting pot > >> containing ideas of Darwin, Bateson, Shannon, Boltzmann, Monod, Prigogine and > >> others. This is very ambitious. Trying to put together the different contexts > >> of a given concept may just be too ambitious for some concepts (think about > >> politics, happiness, religion, ?.). > >> When trying to define information perhaps we should take some more time to > >> address the contexts, the different domains, and then try some domain related > >> definitions. The next step being to see how these definitions can be part of a > >> possible synergy. > >> That idea is not new. Perhaps this has been addressed in the paper of 2018 > >> Journal of Documentation you refer to (I didn?t succeed accessing it. Could > >> you tell how to do?). > >> All the best > >> Christophe > >> > >> > >> De : Fis >> >> de la part de > >> annette.grathoff at is4si.org > > >> >> >> > >> Envoy? : lundi 30 mars 2020 17:45 > >> ? : markov at foibg.com > > >> >>; > >> fis at listas.unizar.es > > >> >> > >> Objet : Re: [Fis] whether this useful simulation is information, data or > >> something else? > >> > >> Dear Krassimir, > >> > >> a very profound question. As you address me as Annette, not as GS, I would > >> like to answer telling my personal opinion. I deem the subject "information > >> study" as largely incomplete and thus cannot really give a profound answer to > >> your question based on what I gathered - which is nicely collected in > >> https://doi.org/10.1108/JD-05-2017-0077 > >> > >> (Rocchi, P., Resca, A. The creativity of authors in defining the concept of > >> information, Journal of Documentation, 2018 74; 1074-1103) yet. > >> > >> I am helping myself by basing the concept of information on the physical basis > >> which I experienced as useful, namely information being something which is > >> stored and which influences selective regimes. Seeing this in an evolutionary > >> context, i.e. based on starting with what science describes a s purely > >> physical... continuing over kinetics and dynamics which science describes as > >> physical-chemical where molecules and chemical regimes act on selection > >> regimes... over the selective mechanisms which Biology knows as Natural > >> selection, niche construction and community pre-cultures... arriving at our > >> human and largely intention based decision making evaluation and judging > >> regimes (keeping in mind the recursivity of the nested selective regimes), I > >> would reason the following estimation: > >> > >> A simulation like the one which Sanderson generated is personal information > >> for the receiver if the receiving (watching) person sees the video in a > >> context where attention is high and expectation is neither too high nor as low > >> as changing into certainty that the video is pure noise. Only then is it > >> possible that some of the contents are stored in the memory and are capable of > >> influencing the selective (intentional) decision making behavior of the > >> receiver. Interestingly, if attention is expecting negative confirmation - in > >> the example that the video will not be informative (e.g. because a colleague > >> said that Sanderson made a video with false contents or one found that > >> Sanderson used silly inappropriate colors when watching a previous video) - > >> then the outcome can be very strongly dependent on initial conditions under > >> which the video is watched. If the expectation for negative confirmation is > >> disappointed, e.g. because the receiver sees that Sanderson hit the mark > >> explaining with the simulation what one has read and understood as important > >> just hours ago and one is amazed about how strong the contrast to the > >> (negative) expectation is, the correction of negative expectation can make the > >> informative event (according to Bateson/ Koestler and others: a kind of > >> physically based change of mindset) even stronger. In this context it would be > >> helpful if I was a psychologist with neurological knowledge. From psychology I > >> remember the interesting concept of cognitive dissonance...just to imagine how > >> much of general knowledge in addition to knowledge on initial conditions would > >> be necessary to estimate the informative effect of data based messages on a > >> human individuals. > >> > >> A simulation like the one which Sanderson generated is definitely and > >> independently from context, information, namely IT information, since it is > >> the outcome of technical information processing and reached the PC of the > >> receiver by making a physical difference in the PC?s memory state (switching > >> data represented by a collection of magnetized particles on spinning > >> platters). > >> > >> For an animal like a dog, the video will not be personal information for the > >> simple reason that its attention level is not activated by this type of > >> information coming from intentional decision making regimes.The attention > >> threshold of the dog is surmounted by fitting olfactory or acoustic and > >> optical signals which proved important for survival (Biological selective > >> regime) and well being in it?s pet environment (Biological+coevolutionary > >> human Cultural selective regime) for the dog. The acoustic and visual signals > >> which a dog could receive from a PC in its keeper?s flat which is playing > >> Sanderson?s video could in best case attract the attention for a span of > >> seconds when the animal confounds the sound or color structure from the > >> machine as something of relevance for its bodily states (like hunger or > >> expectation of signals from the keeper) but unless there has been conditioning > >> on some of the possible signals, this attention will not last long. The dog > >> will not stay with "understanding" the signals as referential to itself. > >> > >> So from this perspective, many many things of our daily lives I deem > >> information; whether the information is physical, physico chemical, biological > >> or intentional in its dynamics (or carries characteristica of any of the > >> selective regimes that preceded its first appearance. A chain of selective > >> influences which often leads down to the physical selective regime of "forces > >> and entropy growth" (to cut a long story short)) is dependent on the > >> complexity of the structure communicating the information and the selective > >> regime evaluating it; It is dependent on the structures? evolutionary > >> (including cultural evolution) history. The development of entirely new forms > >> of information (storage and signal transmission) as well as new forms of > >> information dynamics (just think of the handy "undo" function of your > >> programs. Unthinkable in this form in all of nature?s preceding selective > >> environments!) is also possible, based on the selective environments which are > >> developing within and around them. > >> > >> Kind regards, > >> > >> Annette > >> > >> Krassimir Markov wrote on 30.03.2020 14:11 (GMT +02:00): > >> > >> Dear Annette and FIS Colleagues, > >> > >> The following question I had sent to Gordana offline due to the FIS limit of > >> number of posts per week. > >> I see it is still actual, so I resend it now. > >> > >> In line with the FIS discussion, I would kindly ask you to tell, in your view, > >> whether this useful simulation is information, data or something else? > >> > >> Be healthy and in good spirit! > >> Friendly greetings > >> Krassimir > >> > >> > >> From: annette.grathoff at is4si.org > >> > > >> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:46 PM > >> To: gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdh.se > >> > ; fis at listas.unizar.es > >> > > >> Subject: Re: [Fis] Excellent simulation > >> > >> Dear colleagues, > >> > >> Grant Sanderson (3blue1brown) did it again. Please do not tell me you never > >> heard of him and his excellent YouTube science-knowledge visualization videos! > >> He changed the interest of thousands of people for abstract mathematical > >> ideas, making them concrete and more tangible by his excellent simulation > >> videos. He originally came from the Khan Academy team as you can read here: > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3Blue1Brown > >> . > >> > >> This I say as Annette Grathoff, not as the General secretary: My personal > >> opinion is that every scientist interested in informing curious people and > >> raising interest in scientific knowledge should know his videos. This is how > >> information about important concepts is enabled to spread many times faster > >> than when relying solely on the classical ways. It does science well to spread > >> channels like his, after you (not only) scientifically approved of the > >> content. > >> > >> Best wishes and stay healthy, > >> > >> Annette > >> > >> Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic wrote on 29.03.2020 12:17 (GMT +02:00): > >> > >> Dear colleagues, > >> > >> > >> Please have a look at this excellent simulation: > >> > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxAaO2rsdIs&feature=youtu.be > >> > >> > >> which makes me think about how powerful thinking tools > >> that computation and information/data really offer. > >> > >> > >> Stay safe and take care, > >> > >> Gordana > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Fis mailing list > >> Fis at listas.unizar.es > > >> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > >> > >> ---------- > >> INFORMACISN SOBRE PROTECCISN DE DATOS DE CARACTER PERSONAL > >> > >> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la > >> Universidad de Zaragoza. > >> Puede encontrar toda la informacisn sobre como tratamos sus datos en el > >> siguiente enlace: > >> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas > >> > >> Recuerde que si esta suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja > >> desde la propia aplicacisn en el momento en que lo desee. > >> http://listas.unizar.es > >> > >> ---------- > > _______________________________________________ > > Fis mailing list > > Fis at listas.unizar.es > > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > ---------- > > INFORMACI?N SOBRE PROTECCI?N DE DATOS DE CAR?CTER PERSONAL > > > > Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la > > Universidad de Zaragoza. > > Puede encontrar toda la informaci?n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el > > siguiente enlace: > > https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas > > Recuerde que si est? suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja > > desde la propia aplicaci?n en el momento en que lo desee. > > http://listas.unizar.es > > ---------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > Fis mailing list > Fis at listas.unizar.es > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > ---------- > INFORMACI?N SOBRE PROTECCI?N DE DATOS DE CAR?CTER PERSONAL > > Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por > la Universidad de Zaragoza. > Puede encontrar toda la informaci?n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el > siguiente enlace: > https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas > Recuerde que si est? suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de > baja desde la propia aplicaci?n en el momento en que lo desee. > http://listas.unizar.es > ---------- > ------------ pr?xima parte ------------ Se ha borrado un adjunto en formato HTML... URL: From annette.grathoff at is4si.org Tue Apr 14 15:58:08 2020 From: annette.grathoff at is4si.org (annette.grathoff at is4si.org) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 15:58:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Fis] whether this useful simulation is information, data or something else? In-Reply-To: References: <20200330094623.AD6AA4940507@dd38208.kasserver.com> Message-ID: <20200414135808.C8E2749406C9@dd38208.kasserver.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karl.javorszky at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 19:42:49 2020 From: karl.javorszky at gmail.com (Karl Javorszky) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 19:42:49 +0200 Subject: [Fis] whether this useful simulation is information, data or something else? In-Reply-To: <20200414135808.C8E2749406C9@dd38208.kasserver.com> References: <20200330094623.AD6AA4940507@dd38208.kasserver.com> <20200414135808.C8E2749406C9@dd38208.kasserver.com> Message-ID: Dear Annette, Thank you for returning to the rhetorical challenges of explaining the works of a pocket watch to a Neanderthal. Your sympathy is greatly appreciated. The captatio benevolentiae as the first step of any explanation has to stick to the didactic facts, and correctly describe the task: the explanation of some divine machination is of such a striking novelty, that the learned audience has to be ready to start completely afresh. You have never seen things like this here invention, what is more: you never thought it possible that such gadgets can exist. The object of the demonstration to be a pocket watch is an illuminating allegory. The order by which Nature present itself to us is intricate and artful, but first of all periodic and interrelated. The noble savage has to conceptualise himself and the world around himself different to heretofore with identical units and no pre-existing relations among the units, into a new concept, where there are many pre-existing relations among the units, and the state of the assembly is what we look at, not the biographies of the individuals. The individuals are connected by pre-existing bonds, which are called cycles; these become apparent as any permutation is transformed into a different permutation. Dr N. E. Anderthal shall also be prepared to conceptualise that the whole system is (contains, consists of) nothing but cycles, and elements are available or less so, in dependence of what order prevails. Orders are periodicities, and the model reflects periodicities imposing places. Sorting and ordering reflect the influences of periodicities of outside circumstances on a habitat. The parable of the pocket watch shall drive your attention to following main perspective suggestions in connection with the narrative: a. everything is periodic, the stages in a period follow each other in a sequence (teeth are fixed on a cog); b. for each pair of order changes from-to that can take place (with *k* different orders), each element is assigned ? (a priori, by Nature, as a property of it being a pair of natural numbers) ? some other elements, with which together it is fulfilling the exercise ?reorder?. (With which it is a co-member in the corpus of that cycle in which it is contained during a reorder *ki **? kj);* c. we assume a reorder *ki **? kj* to take place by drawing conclusions from our observations, that such subsets of elements have been observed that make it reasonable to assume that a reorder *ki **? kj *takes place (the cogs and wheels of the watch are self-referencing); d. the remaining alternative(s), namely that assuming that reorder *kq **? kr* is taking place had also many points speaking for it, remain in existence at least as long as both reorders process such members of the cycle, which are common to both; So far, in the words above, stands how I would have tried to clarify the pocket watch parable. Let us now follow your points: Picturing the influences of external forces affecting a habitat (day ? night, tidal) is equivalent to sorting the collection. The elements are different among each other, and these differences impose a linear order on them. (Students stand in a row according to last name) Two symbols of difference generate two linear orders (Students in a row on first name). A plane can be constructed, where the x,y coordinates are the sequential positions in the rows. (Aron Abelson will always stay near *(1,1)*, and Zlotan Zwonimir near the *(n,n) *x,y coordinates of a plane with places for *n* students). We insist, that the operators *{<,=,>} *are present and operate. The linear place and the planar position are an inborn property of pairs of natural numbers. Anything in the world that is made up of 2 parts, obeys the sentence *a+b=c.* That, what we observe and perceive are but variations of this and a few other basic axioms (laws of Nature). In order to restrict our investigations to a manageable scope, we look only into the self-organisation of a multitude of *true *sentences as they undergo periodic changes. If this does not try to model Nature, then what is? The original and central task of FIS was, and is, to explain the functioning of theoretical genetics. That is a conceptual operating theatre, where everything is optimal, no errors are made and no noise is perceived. We try to see, how a few dozen of true sentences begin self-organising. On a different level, sorting procedures picture the inundation flows, as the cells are nourished or transmit information, quite well. In any periodic process, there will be some that have achieved the goal to x%, while others are at y%. This is the basis for ranking, ordering, sorting. The survival of the fittest is a judgement passed down by that lord: sequencing. The Rubik cube analogy refers to the mechanical constraints of which cubes are connected with which cubes. You can not move a single cube: it is bound in a ?cycle?. In fact, the relations between *(a,b)* being such as they are, the cycles come in two main varieties: those that appear between order-related issues, and then the space-related reorders, which we call the standard reorders. These generate two such spaces, where 3 axes are rectangular, in both of the spaces. The generation of the two spaces takes three steps, as the spaces are the result of three sets of planes being in existence: horizontal, vertical, sagittal. The standard cycles stitch the planes together. *But the information I would want to receive from you, in which way you found out that ?a+b=c? can become limited and predictable when knowing more about the mechanics of permutation and cyclic combination not yet reached my mind. * It is, again, the economy. Will the elements be available at that moment as prescribed by the progression of the reorder within cycle *k* of the reorder? Those elements of the cycle that will come later are not with us in the moment: these elements are outside our logical world, probably we call them dark matter. Whether they will actually materialise there and then is a function of the cycle?s resilience and the competitive situation in the dark shadows behind the scenes. Cycles are by their nature limited in all their properties. Yet they manage to raise competitive claims regarding the coming-into-existence or not of elements. Each element is in many cycles. Its loyalties may be torn. If the overall battle cry of the day is: reorder *ki **? kj*, its linear position in cycle *w *is known. If however it turns out that reorder *kq **? kr* is to be executed, it will then activate its properties of belonging to cycle *z *, there on linear position *k*. This would cause a breakdown of the system. As we discuss ideal circumstances, one of all those pairs of reorders has to be eliminated, which does not harmony with its pair. There remain only a limited number of possible adaptive transformations (reorder combinations) which can coexist with each other. The enhanced notation of *(a,b) *for a symbol that describes one case of (*a *inclusion and *b *exclusion) relations of elements would allow, in later steps, to keep count of negations, up to a supposed threshold where the accumulated negations outweigh the assertions and the system undergoes a transformation. The most encouraging words in your letter come near the end: if by your good offices you could facilitate a computing laboratory to assign some exploratory manpower, that would be great. My last *cr? de coeur* was a contribution to a congress in Cracow 2 or 3 years ago. The article Picturing Order is addressed to professionals in computer graphics. The wish list has not changed much since, some new promising indications have been found that the system of algorithms that can be deducted from the basic interdependence shown in oeis.org/A242615 could indeed be helpful in many fields. A different marketing approach would put forward the same idea under the title of Prediction Tables. Like multiplication or trigonometrical tables, a table for predictions would fill a void. Establishing on the basis of *a+b=c* a collection of possible observations and allowing to sharpen the predicting capabilities of younger systems, the etalon could become the fundament to reasoned judgement, the grandfather of artificial intelligence. When do we deduct that reorder *ki **? kj* is taking place? How many and which observations are necessary to establish that reorder *kq **? kr *is not taking place? How far removed can the targets of one?s bets be? Assuming that counting will transform in some fields into a counting of cycles, periods and rhythms, the Prediction Table will be a central necessity for the industry. Thanks for your constructive attitude Karl Am Di., 14. Apr. 2020 um 15:58 Uhr schrieb : > Dear Karl, > > I would love to understand more of the implications of your interesting > model. Since I have difficulties following your argumentation, I have to > ask you for clarification. Your writing style and style of explanation is > difficult for me to follow, since I am not *that* good in jumping from > example to example while having the feeling that you do not actually > exemplify using the mechanics of the example to aid in generating a picture > of your model in my head. You prompt to visualize a Neandertal together > with a pocket watch so this picture is clear: Some guy who has neither the > understanding of the elements nor of the relations of the system presented > to him, so the expectation is that the watch will be either destroyed or > ignored or something will be changed not-destructively per chance. Or that > the guy will be watching the outcomes on the clock face, memorizing them > and thereby maybe deduce that there are cycles involved creating the bigger > cycle. But you do not use or tie to any of my expectations but instead jump > to the logic of unit cycles and the analytic tool of combining cycles of > different diameters (number of teeth) in superpositions. When I follow you > there, you immediately remind me of examples for ecological necessities and > basis behind cycles, maybe having in the back of your mind again the > Neandertal guy to who you might have tried to explain the working of clock > cogs with the help of this metaphor. But the information I would want to > receive from you, in which way you found out that ?a+b=c? can become > limited and predictable when knowing more about the mechanics of > permutation and cyclic combination not yet reached my mind. You continue > with a foreshadowing of constrained motion in periodic respectively > cyclically repeating processes and their step-size, respectively angular > velocity of cogs in your pocket watch model and my mind prepares itself for > some kind of Fourier transform- model but instead you jump to ? what I in > my confused state only can interpret as hint to spatial dimensionality and > independence (difference) of three orthogonal coordinates guiding motion > through time. At least then you lost me, when you continue talking about > ?linear, planar, and in some cases, spatial existence.? Are you referring > to forms of attractors in 2d and 3d space? Are you referring to something > like Waddington?s (sorry as a Biologist I have the example of > genotype-phenotype maps when thinking of potential landscapes) potential > landscape model? I am only able to guess. > > I start anew: ?The elements are by their properties joined in a wheel > with other elements together with which they change place during a > reorder.? Is the reorder you are referring to the reorder possible in the > constrained situation inside the intact pocket watch, i.e. rotating at a > given speed in a given sense of rotation (clockwise or counter clockwise) > so creating a sequence of numbers which two clockhands guided by their > motion are streaking when passing the clock face in clockwise motion? In > this case I understand properties as given by the intact system pocket > watch. Or is it the reorder which could be possible when opening the watch > and rearranging the coordinated cogs changing their correlation? Then I > would understand properties as given by sizes and teeth-frequency of cogs. > You do not explicitly exclude any of the interpretations. But since you > jump to the example of Rubik?s cube which also is a constrained system that > usually is kept intact, I assume you were referring to the rearrangement in > the clock by winding it up or simply by letting it run observing which time > (number) it will generate. In the example of the Rubik cube there are of > course more combinatory patterns to be expected than in the clock. Are you > trying to make my mind switch to external patterns generated by internal > interactive mechanisms which are hidden to the superficial decision making? > The concurrency of teeth of different cogs or of colours on the Rubik cube > is calculable. ?because the properties of the elements had given them > places in linear sequences, positions on planes and at times spatial > positions, too. The properties of the elements are like playing cards at > the beginning of the game: not each of the possible impacts on the game of > a property of an element will be necessarily played out.? I agree, excited > what will be coming next. > > Like Shannon and Terry you see information as given by the possible and > potentially available combinations of developed elements which are not to > be seen at the actual moment but which are given by the constraints on > relations and elements that developed with (and within) a system. The > remaining alternatives are a part of the setup. Understood, still excited > for the explanation how your model helps in narrowing down theoretical > alternatives without a full analysis of the ?cogs? and their relations > inside the system. > > ?Taking a closer look at the positions of *a+b=c* during periodic > rearrangements due to external? influences? You are hinting at the fact > that there is a numeric (modellable by number sequence permutation and > combination of sequences) processing of external influences in systems and > that there exists only a limited set of possibilities which are ?viable? > given the sequences and options for their rearrangement are known. > > ??inclusion, exclusion notation of group relations suddenly refers to the > figures in the shadows: the truth and validity of sentences remains > identical, whether they refer to states of the world in the foreground or > in the background.? Now you have my full attention. I am really curious how > your model helps in finding the right cog sizes and relations given a > system dynamic or something like that. I am thrilled but at the same time I > see that your text has almost come to its end. > > ?patterns evolving when a collection of realizations of *a+b=c*is > subjected to periodic rearrangements.? ?sounds like you might be needing > more computation power. You know the contact address of the general > secretary of IS4SI and you know people in the community who are interested > in the implications of your interesting model (and I bet you know several > people who already gained a deeper insight into the capacities of your > model than I managed to gain until now, inside the community). My proposal > would be: Tell the community which calculations you need to be done, which > you cannot do yourself and ask for support. Or you explain the model and > its implications in a way that can be understood by the gs, the president > of IS4SI, the vice presidents etc. to make them organize a team working on > a research question relevant for your model. > > In either case whether my proposal might be of help or not, I wish you the > best for your interesting model! > > Best wishes and thank you for the exciting and promising insinuations, > > Annette > > --- > > Dr. Annette Grathoff > > Evolution of Information Processing Systems > > Vienna > > grathoff at icbm.de > > 06802341968 > > > > General Secretary of the > > International Society for the Study of Information (IS4SI) > > Annette.grathoff at is4si.org > > Karl Javorszky wrote on 04.04.2020 16:39 (GMT +02:00): > > Dear Colleges, > > > > There emerges a rather well-defined concept of a ?bed? as a tool, in which > to investigate the behaviour of a model undergoing simulation exercises. > The conceptual infrastructure for a laboratory is present. > > Why don?t we work in a systematic, scientific fashion and find out, what > modelling and simulating yields in knowledge. The idea is to put *a+b=c* in > the cradle, and watch, how the multitude of true sentences begins > self-organising. > > For the study of information, understanding the technical term of > information is helpful, because at least one can say, that the further, the > non-technical, the empirical interpretations of the term information are > different to the technical understanding of information, namely in such > points:; such a clarification would help to keep chasing the fairy. > > > > To clarify the technical meaning of information, one will need a mental > exercise. One should imagine oneself as a Neanderthal to whom the workings > of a pocket watch are explained. The concepts that allow the construction > of a pocket watch are not yet in the mental inventory of the noble savage. > The idea is, that quite a few cycles interact like the wheels and cogs in a > pocket watch. There are only a limited number of possible next moves once > one is in the process of predicting the next move in a process that is > steered by two periodic changes. The instances of *a+b=c *are being > continuously re-sorted, being subject to two periodic changes in > circumstances, always in a position to obey the requirements to both of the > periodic changes impose. (If the day/night periodicity suggests: move to > warmer area, and the tide changes suggest: move to area less turbulent, the > element is in possession of a path, with areas from-to.) The concept of a > move is comparable to one tick of the watch, and is 1/3 of the standard 3 > reorders that constitute a temporal and spatial moment with 3 rectangular > axes. The moves happen by means of cycles. Arising from the fact of the > elements being different among each other, the properties that > differentiate the elements among each other transfer to these a linear, > planar, and in some cases, spatial existence. The elements are by their > properties joined in a wheel with other elements together with which they > change place during a reorder. The mechanism of the pocket watch is > comparable to an idealised Rubik cube, where concurrent wheels-cycles run, > and the patterns on the faces of the cube are the appearances which one > perceives and counts. Which combinations of elements can be contemporaneous > is a solvable question, because the properties of the elements had given > them places in linear sequences, positions on planes and at times spatial > positions, too. The properties of the elements are like playing cards at > the beginning of the game: not each of the possible impacts on the game of > a property of an element will be necessarily played out. The point to make > is, that a complete table could be generated which lists all possible games > that can have taken place. We deal with a limited amount of being possibly > different. The whole mechanism can be modelled by a limited number of > wheels. > > Information in the technical sense is that part (those teeth) of the cog > that is presently not in the clutch, is presently not engaged. In a Las > Vegas machine: those symbols that are on the wheel but not presently in the > window. This is the background, to which the assertive statement relates. > > > > The remaining alternatives are a part of the setup. Information is not > generated, it has always been with us, the realised or realisable > alternatives being an implication of the properties of the elements, the > non-realised alternatives are as well a part of the package. The background > to a logical statement is generated with the logical statement. > > Taking a closer look at the positions of *a+b=c* during periodic > rearrangements, due to external circumstances influencing the habitat, > would allow clarifying expectations vis a vis information. In its > elementary form, information is simply the frame to the picture. As the > sentences become more complex, the stage can be easily reached, where the > inclusion, exclusion notation of group relations suddenly refers to the > figures in the shadows: the truth and validity of sentences remains > identical, whether they refer to states of the world in the foreground or > in the background. > > > > Many more arguments could be put forward to encourage this learned society > to investigate the patterns evolving when a collection of realisations > of *a+b=c > *is subjected to periodic rearrangements. A deeper understanding of the > non-restrictive meanings ascribed to the word information can be achieved > when these connotations are aligned to ideas of predictability and > tenacity. There appears to exist a natural constant for truthfulness, inner > consistence of a state of the assembly, which concept would sound > interesting to philosophers, but to researchers in applied sciences, also. > > > > Best wishes wherever you are > > Karl > > Am Mo., 30. M?rz 2020 um 14:11 Uhr schrieb Krassimir Markov : > > > Dear Annette and FIS Colleagues, > > > > The following question I had sent to Gordana offline due to the FIS limit > > of number of posts per week. > > I see it is still actual, so I resend it now. > > > > In line with the FIS discussion, I would kindly ask you to tell, in your > > view, whether this useful simulation is information, data or something else? > > > > Be healthy and in good spirit! > > Friendly greetings > > Krassimir > > > > > > *From:* annette.grathoff at is4si.org > > *Sent:* Monday, March 30, 2020 12:46 PM > > *To:* gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdh.se ; fis at listas.unizar.es > > *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Excellent simulation > > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > Grant Sanderson (3blue1brown) did it again. Please do not tell me you > > never heard of him and his excellent YouTube science-knowledge > > visualization videos! He changed the interest of thousands of people for > > abstract mathematical ideas, making them concrete and more tangible by his > > excellent simulation videos. He originally came from the Khan Academy team > > as you can read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3Blue1Brown. > > > > This I say as Annette Grathoff, not as the General secretary: My personal > > opinion is that every scientist interested in informing curious people and > > raising interest in scientific knowledge should know his videos. This is > > how information about important concepts is enabled to spread many times > > faster than when relying solely on the classical ways. It does science well > > to spread channels like his, after you (not only) scientifically approved > > of the content. > > > > Best wishes and stay healthy, > > > > Annette > > > > Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic wrote on 29.03.2020 12:17 (GMT +02:00): > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > > > > > Please have a look at this excellent simulation: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxAaO2rsdIs&feature=youtu.be > > > > > > > > which makes me think about how powerful thinking tools > > that computation and information/data really offer. > > > > > > > > Stay safe and take care, > > > > Gordana > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > Fis mailing list > > Fis at listas.unizar.es > > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > ---------- > > INFORMACISN SOBRE PROTECCISN DE DATOS DE CARACTER PERSONAL > > > > Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por > > la Universidad de Zaragoza. > > Puede encontrar toda la informacisn sobre como tratamos sus datos en el > > siguiente enlace: > > https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas > > Recuerde que si esta suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de > > baja desde la propia aplicacisn en el momento en que lo desee. > > http://listas.unizar.es > > ---------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Fis mailing list > > Fis at listas.unizar.es > > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > ---------- > > INFORMACI?N SOBRE PROTECCI?N DE DATOS DE CAR?CTER PERSONAL > > > > Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por > > la Universidad de Zaragoza. > > Puede encontrar toda la informaci?n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el > > siguiente enlace: > > https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas > > Recuerde que si est? suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de > > baja desde la propia aplicaci?n en el momento en que lo desee. > > http://listas.unizar.es > > ---------- > > > > > ------------ pr?xima parte ------------ Se ha borrado un adjunto en formato HTML... URL: From karl.javorszky at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 12:59:32 2020 From: karl.javorszky at gmail.com (Karl Javorszky) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 12:59:32 +0200 Subject: [Fis] Request for help Message-ID: Request for help in computations Encouraged by Annette?s interest in a model that generates place/time/quality coincidences in plenty, let me outline the project I had been working on, and respectfully ask, whether you see a way to invest manpower and resources in furthering the cause. The task is to find out, by which method Nature manages to transfer information from its packed form, the DNA, to the surroundings of the packed form, with the effect that spatial structures are created which interact (a living cell/system/organ emerges). The registration of the unfolded assembly?s characteristics happens by means of rewriting the actual state from its n-dimensional realisation into a description that is two-dimensional (the DNA). The approach taken has considered, that the written form of the description of a state of the world contains symbols that are *sequenced, *while the unfolded, spatially existing form?s description can not happen in any way in the form of sequences, because the unfolded form is contemporary. There exists a dis-congruence, a conflict between the concepts of being contemporary and of being sequenced. Experiments have shown a way to solve this conflict. To see, how a multitude behaves if subjected to sequencing, a few dozen of the realisations of *a+b=c *have been subjected to sequencing and resequencing. The surprise Huyghens had experienced is comparable to that spectators of the self-organisation of logical phrases will experience, if they look through the resequencing machine (of which a prototype is public, www.tautomat.com). There are more fixed and flexible forms alive here than inhabitants of the Netherlands! Cycles have not yet the place in professional or everyday contexts as they deserve. Cycles are collections of elements that are both contemporary and sequenced. They represent the process of transition from a previous order into a new order. Periodic processes consist of cycles. These subgroups evolve by themselves, according to rules of arithmetic that are too deep for this person, as numeric facts that connect (link, fuse) specific elements to each other to cooperate during an exercise of reorder from order A into order B. A reorder is a task that is solved in teams. The members of a team are members of a corpus of a cycle. There is a wide variety of cycle decompositions of all permutations of *a+b=c, *when resequenced into a different reading of the same sentence *a+b=c, *with a different aspect determining the linear order among the elements. The cycles might be compared to the wheels and cogs of a pocket watch. The specific red thread my research follows is restricted to theoretical genetics. There, ideal circumstances are present. One may idealise actors and influencers, forces, information and chemical valences, etc. into properties of elements. The elements? infights are an implication of their properties, and the scarceness of resources is given by the fact, that one and the same element is contained in several cycles, and is connected to differing sub-collections of other elements: this allows for many sophisticated relations which Chemistry and Physics discuss. For Genetics, not the intensity and diversity of the interactions is of primary interest; we look at the *sequence* of interactions which has to be maintained if the work is to run smoothly. Lacking outside metronomes, we have to do with the longest cycle we can find, and compare the others to this one. The metronome cycle can be up to 129 beats in duration. (There are 136 elements in the set.) For redundancy?s sake, one may propose to look into cycles of corpus strength 122 and 114 to be doing the sequencing infrastructure. The task for help would be to clean up the general collection of cycles and filter out those, which can coexist with the metronome and the main cog cycles. (To coexist: no element is in two cycles that would be subject to conflicting requirements while contemporary.) Find canons (same song, k beats later) that maintain continuity for these. Hypothesis: the canons? iterations are the reason for the intron-exon iterations. Thank you for your interest: Karl ------------ pr?xima parte ------------ Se ha borrado un adjunto en formato HTML... URL: